07 Accord 30K service. User Manual vs. Dealer

At 10,245 miles 07 Accord V6 Mileage Minder said time for B1-2 service.
Looked it up on the manual. Scheduled the service, copied the page from the
manual and went to talk to the "Service Advisor" at my dealership.

Service Advisor had flat rate 30,000 mile service for $429. When I told him
I would like to perform the B1-2 service that Honda specified in the Accord
User Manual he did not have that as part of his menu. He feigned ignorance
of what was called for in the B1-2 service and said that he recommended
their service since the dealership felt that what they outlined in their
$429 service would better maintain the car.

I gave him the copy of the manual page outlining the B1-2 service and he
looked at it dubiously and said that breaking it out item by item would cost
much more than their $429 30,000 mile service. I said let's just try it as
an exercise. He input each of the items called for in the Manual B1-2
service and the total was $129 except for replacing cabin dust and pollen
filter which was an additional $125 and I declined. Looking at his suggested
maintenance I decided to have the transmission fluid replaced as the
dealership suggested and that added $35 to the service (Accord V6 autos seem
to have a reputation for fragility).

Bottom line the B 1-2 service was $164 (transmission fluid change added and
cabin pollen filter deleted) ordered ala carte. Dealer suggested service
would have been $429. My service advisor did not make the process
straightforward. This is the only Honda dealership within 30 miles and I
prefer dealership to independent garage for newer high tech car.

I can see that each time I will have to go through this little game with my
"service advisor" when I need routine service. I will review the manual,
write out a list of services I want and insist that just those be performed.
Bad feelings on both sides at each encounter.

On the other hand perhaps my dealership is correct and the services
recommended by Honda for each service interval are not the best for the car.
Why does replacing the cabin pollen filter cost $125? How many hours labor
is this onerous task? What to group members think?

 

No way... This is hard to believe! What was included in $129??

Here, in Chicagoland, one honda dealership charges $150 for my 2004 4-cyl
coupe basic maintenance which includes just the engine oil change, tire
rotation with some "check and test" useless stuffing (like battery, charging
system test - you know, booogus stuff which does not cost them money). Each
fluid change like oil, ATF, coolant is minimum of 1/2 hour labor cost, which
is over $110/hour.

This, on the other hand, sounds rediculously expensive. This filter costs
less than $15 for my 2004 so even with 1/2 hour labor would be around $70.
And of course, you could replace it easily yourself.

This is again strange. Cheap like dirt if you consider a quart of honda ATF
costs like $6-8 depending where you ask and you need to add the labor and
recycling fees on top of it.

This guy is giving you very strange estimates...

Ask them how do they do the ATF change... and hope they did not "flush" it
with any flushing machine...
Honda original Owner's Manual specify that the transmission should be
drained and refilled 3-4 times, which means that on a single ATF change you
will use more than 10 quarts of ATF @ minimal price of $6 quart - it is
impossible to be charged $35 to the end customer.

Remember one thing: honda dealerships are not Honda. They are independent
car salesmen and repair shop which happens to display Honda banner on the
building. Their goal is to convince you that you need unnecessary
maintenance work performed in order to suck your money out of your wallet.
That is why they recomend 3000 miles oil changes, regardless if you use car
in harsh stop&go traffic or you make thousands of miles per month on the
highway...

 

I'd go with the manual. Some dealerships are better than others but the
ones I've seen always try to pad their pockets. In reference to the cabin
filter, for my '05 Accord it costs $15.01 from
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/, plus s&h. Takes a few minutes to
empty your glove compartment, pull it off and swap out the filter. The
diagram for the part is listed under "Heater Blower". Save your $$!

-Dave

 

I'm sure he did. And if you ask me, I'll tell you simply to fork over
$500 because I want you to.

Hey, a man can ask. A MAN CAN ALSO SAY NO.

Then he needs to go to McDonald's, where it's all in pretty pictures on
the cash register. If there's not a picture for it, it doesn't exist.

It's a pretty simple life. He should just stop being a service writer
if it's the simple life he wants.

Did he feign ignorance of what is written on the appropriate page of the
owner's manual?

I feel that you should give me $500. Right now. hurry UP already! Or
else BAD things will happen to you, no doubt.

That wasn't dubious; that was disappointment that he lost a little bit
of paycheck that day. (They DO get paid commissions on what they sell,
you know.) Damn smarty art customers, reading the manual. Who do they
think they are, anyway?

That's their prerogative. They can charge whatever they like. They are
an independent service shop.

You are free not to use them. Problem solved.

Damn, I like how this story is unfolding!

hmmmmm....$429......$250......$429.......$250......he said his was
cheaper....wait a minute.....

Well, it is his business to run. He may have decided that losing yutzes
like you is an OK tradeoff compared to the suckers he CAN get at $429
per.

It's your choice to buy or not. I don't go to Best Buy, for example;
that's perfectly OK, and doesn't hurt me one bit. Going to another shop
(maybe an independent shop!) wouldn't hurt you (or any of this guy's
other customers) one bit, either.

I hear you. But by now, an 07--which is just an 03 with a couple
tweaks--is a well-known car that any GOOD independent shop will have no
problem with.

But this points out something I always tell people who ask, whether it's
cars or computers or whatever. The first thing I ask is, what's your
support system? I like Hondas, but I also like Toyotas. I have a
superb Honda dealer and support system here in town, so there's no
reason not to buy one. But if I lived somewhere else, where the Honda
service option sucked compared to the Toyota, I'd buy a Toyota in a
heartbeat.

It's all about your support system. If it sucks, the whole thing will
suck--no matter how good the product is.

Just talk to him. Explain how you're going to follow what's in the
owner's manual, and ask that he saves his "dealership specials" for
others who aren't so savvy.

Nope. The computer knows what kind of driving you're doing, and weighs
each mile accordingly. The lights light up specifically tuned to your
driving, and what the car needs under those conditions.

What's great about that system is that should Honda decide their initial
programming of the system needs tweaked, it's a simple download to the
computer. Regardless, follow the lights and the manual.

They call it one hour. That's $80. Add $40 for their filters.

Of course, you can buy aftermarket filters for about half that. And
poke around, you'll see how it's done and that it's not that hard to do
yourself.

But shame on Honda for making it as difficult as they have. This
shouldn't be any harder than changing my furnace filter at home.

 

Just to clairify a couple of things from my original post.

Milage was 30,245 not 10,245

I did have the car serviced at this dealership. Ala carte charge breakdown
(P&L) was:

Oil Change with Filter $37

Rotate tires, inspect brakes and adjust parking brake $37

Service Transmission $78

Replace engine air filter $32

Usual walk around inspection (fluids, tires, battery, belts, steering)
included

+ disposal fees and tax

- preferred customer discount (bought the car there)

Total I paid for these services $165. I felt this was a fair price.

Just changed the cabin air filter myself. For this job

Part at local parts store $17
30 secs to empty glove box
1 min to release glove box hinges
1 min to R&R filter from carrier
1 minute to rehinge door and refill glove box.

Cost $17 parts 5 mins of my time labor.

Advice to Honda Owners. Have only service outlined in owners manual
performed. Pay ala carte. You probably will save significant money.

Howard

 

The transmission change is just a drain and fill. A drain and fill
every 30k miles is sufficient and unless you are very paranoid about
your car you really don' need to do the 3 drain and fills. I have 2
Accords, a 95 (125k miles) and a 99 (75k miles) and have been doing
the drain and fill once every 30k miles without any issues and the ATF
is still like new.

If you can change the air cabin filter, the engine air filter is
easier to change so I would suggest that you look into doing that the
next time yourself and save $15.

 

After re-reading the manual:
https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/AD0505/AD0505O00221A.pdf
I think you are right - they probably mean do this 3-4 times when
you switch the fluid type after emergency fill with a different one.
But the wording was not clear for me at the first reading...

 

no it's not. the v6 transmissions have been terrible.

that's very misleading - it's not a single atf change - it needs to be
done with a driving gap between each drain and fill so that the fluid in
the torque converter circulates.

 

that didn't stop you giving bad advice to others, though, did it.

 

that's very misleading - it's not a single atf change - it needs to be
done with a driving gap between each drain and fill so that the fluid in
the torque converter circulates.[/QUOTE]

hang on here. There's a difference between an ATF change and an ATF
replacement.

Honda specifies ATF "change" at certain intervals. That's just a single
drain/fill. Yes, I know--it doesn't change the fluid the same way an
oil change changes the fluid.

Honda also specifies that IF you want to "flush" all the fluid out, that
you do not FLUSH it out with a machine or other mechanical means. Honda
says if you want to "flush" all the fluid out, do the drain/fill/drive
thing several times. That is the ONLY manufacturer-approved method of
replacing all of the fluid (well, as much as you can).

So the maintenance schedule does specify a single drain/fill procedure
at certain intervals. And while they do document the multiple
drain/fill/drive sequence, they don't specify it as a routine
maintenance.

 

hang on here. There's a difference between an ATF change and an ATF
replacement.

Honda specifies ATF "change" at certain intervals. That's just a single
drain/fill. Yes, I know--it doesn't change the fluid the same way an
oil change changes the fluid.

Honda also specifies that IF you want to "flush" all the fluid out, that
you do not FLUSH it out with a machine or other mechanical means. Honda
says if you want to "flush" all the fluid out, do the drain/fill/drive
thing several times. That is the ONLY manufacturer-approved method of
replacing all of the fluid (well, as much as you can).

So the maintenance schedule does specify a single drain/fill procedure
at certain intervals. And while they do document the multiple
drain/fill/drive sequence, they don't specify it as a routine
maintenance.[/QUOTE]

agreed. the way our "expert" wrote it though, "the transmission should
be drained and refilled 3-4 times, which means that on a single ATF
change you will use more than 10 quarts of ATF..." it sounds like he's
advocating changing 3-4 times in a single sitting. utterly wasteful and
completely missing the point.

 

Having no options to completely change fluid in one operation was a
stupid move on Honda's part. A simple converter drain plug/access would
have alleviate this issue entirely.

JT

 

I am curious...
How do you imagine a torque converter drain plug?
Where would it be located?

Do you know any auto transmission with such drain plug?

 

hang on here. There's a difference between an ATF change and an ATF
replacement.

Honda specifies ATF "change" at certain intervals. That's just a single
drain/fill. Yes, I know--it doesn't change the fluid the same way an
oil change changes the fluid.

Honda also specifies that IF you want to "flush" all the fluid out, that
you do not FLUSH it out with a machine or other mechanical means. Honda
says if you want to "flush" all the fluid out, do the drain/fill/drive
thing several times. That is the ONLY manufacturer-approved method of
replacing all of the fluid (well, as much as you can).

So the maintenance schedule does specify a single drain/fill procedure
at certain intervals. And while they do document the multiple
drain/fill/drive sequence, they don't specify it as a routine
maintenance.[/QUOTE]

In my 2004 manual they say that when you use wrong fluid you need to replace
as much of the fluid as possible. To do so, you need to drain and fill 4
times using short trips in between drains. The wording is "do it three times
and then final time". This whole operation, consisting of 4 drains, 4 fills
and 3 short trips (in right order, of course) can be understand as a single
service item when the fluid needs to be replaced. You will need 3 x 3 = 9
quarts of fluid to do the job.

If you have right fluid type, single drain/fill with 3 quarts seems to be
enough.

 

hang on here. There's a difference between an ATF change and an ATF
replacement.

Honda specifies ATF "change" at certain intervals. That's just a single
drain/fill. Yes, I know--it doesn't change the fluid the same way an
oil change changes the fluid.

Honda also specifies that IF you want to "flush" all the fluid out, that
you do not FLUSH it out with a machine or other mechanical means. Honda
says if you want to "flush" all the fluid out, do the drain/fill/drive
thing several times. That is the ONLY manufacturer-approved method of
replacing all of the fluid (well, as much as you can).

So the maintenance schedule does specify a single drain/fill procedure
at certain intervals. And while they do document the multiple
drain/fill/drive sequence, they don't specify it as a routine
maintenance.[/QUOTE]

In my 2004 manual they say that when you use wrong fluid you need to replace
as much of the fluid as possible. To do so, you need to drain and fill 4
times using short trips in between drains. The wording is "do it three times
and then final time". This whole operation, consisting of 4 drains, 4 fills
and 3 short trips (in right order, of course) can be understand as a single
service item when the fluid needs to be replaced. You will need 4 x 3 = 12
quarts of fluid to do the job.

If you have right fluid type, single drain/fill with 3 quarts seems to be
enough.

 

In the "old" days, all converters had drain plugs.

The reason they don't now is that a few cents in savings are realized in
the manufacturing process.

JT

 

isn't it amazing what you can learn from reading the manual?

 

and they weren't anywhere near as good as we have them today.

that's not true. there are several reasons why they're not used these days:

1. lightweight modern torque converters are made of relatively thin
metal. that means it can flex a lot in use. to have a single point
with a rigid plug in it is going to be a fatigue problem around that point.

2. it can leak.

3. it's not necessary to change 100% of the oil when changing. even car
engines don't drain 100%.

bottom line, the "benefit" of having one is significantly outweighed by
the benefits of /not/ having one.