08 civic warm up issues

(M.A. Stewart) wrote in

Is HE a fool? You're supposed to be responsible for yourself in this
life. You need to do your OWN ass-kicking. If the dealer won't help (the
infrared thermometer is the FIRST step), you call Honda Canada and get a
zone rep involved. You (politely but insistently) kick ass and don't
take "no" for an answer. Honda Canada WILL help if the rep can be
convinced that there's a problem. Honda is HIGHLY protective of its
reputation. Intelligent and reasoned arguments ARE listened to, believe
it or not, even by Big Bad Environment-Destroying Automakers.

What is NOT listened to is trivial whining from unwashed proles who
refuse to back up their gripes with solid evidence that there is in fact
a problem that is not being dealt with with by the franchised dealer.
Retail establishments of all kinds get a LOT of disaffected weirdos with
imagined problems, so it's not surprising that dealers seem to be
treating these poor-heat reports skeptically. If there IS in fact
something wrong, there will eventually be issued a TSB (one of at least
a hundred issued each year) detailing the problem and its fix.

What is it with people today? Nobody wants to do some legwork and just
get stuff fixed. Mistakes and screwups happen. Bad customer service
happens too, just because people are human and are highly defective.
Instead of dealing with reality the real way, everybody now wants to
immediately run to Big Brother Government and get them to whack some
rich guy real hard.

You want to know what's wrong with society today? Look in the mirror.
You're your _own_ last line of defense, and should be, regardless of
what the government-lovers want to see happen.

No kidding. Having been the victim of defective thermostats once or
twice over several decades, I know exactly what you mean.

Have /you, personally/ ever seen any 2008 car fail in such a manner?

The very best "lever" to use on the "fools" is for informed consumers to
do this:
1) have the dealer or some other garage, or the car owner himself, warm
the car up all the way (at least a half-hour of actual driving), then
aim a $75 infrared thermometer at the upper rad hose's outlet at the
head. If the max reading is much less than 205F, then there is a
problem;
2) if there IS a problem and the dealer refuses to fix it, call Honda
Canada at 1-888-946-6329.

When I say I have NEVER seen an engine with proper combustion and a good
thermostat fail to heat up so as to exhibit 205 at the outlet, I
exaggerate not at all.

Way behind on updates due to lack of time. We've hired a couple of new
guys, so I hopefully will have more time in the future.

 

OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree with
the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.

I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer in
the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the thermostat.

For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No surprises
here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but there was a
definite improvement.

 

OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree with
the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.

I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer in
the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the thermostat.

For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No surprises
here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but there was a
definite improvement.

 

So I'm not just whistling in the wind?

 

So I'm not just whistling in the wind?

 

Tegger wrote:
(...)

(...)


A bit of perspective: I was in Advanced Auto mechanics in high
school, and was told the same thing by the shop teacher - that cars were
essentially cleaning urban air. The year?

1975.

 

Tegger wrote:
(...)

(...)


A bit of perspective: I was in Advanced Auto mechanics in high
school, and was told the same thing by the shop teacher - that cars were
essentially cleaning urban air. The year?

1975.

 

nope. i'll add one thing though - while the thermostat can indeed, and
typically will, be the problem, a below-spec coolant temp sensor can
exacerbate it. as i found recently, even with an in-spec thermostat, if
the computer is getting erroneous data indicating cold engine, it'll
inject rich mixture, and that doesn't burn as hot as stoichiometric
mixture, thus the engine takes even longer to warm than normal.

your i.r. thermometer suggestion is excellent. i would also suggest with
an obdcII and higher vehicle, matching that against the temperature the
computer thinks the coolant is. if it's below the temp measured
externally at the radiator feed, the sensor is /definitely/ out of spec.

 

nope. i'll add one thing though - while the thermostat can indeed, and
typically will, be the problem, a below-spec coolant temp sensor can
exacerbate it. as i found recently, even with an in-spec thermostat, if
the computer is getting erroneous data indicating cold engine, it'll
inject rich mixture, and that doesn't burn as hot as stoichiometric
mixture, thus the engine takes even longer to warm than normal.

your i.r. thermometer suggestion is excellent. i would also suggest with
an obdcII and higher vehicle, matching that against the temperature the
computer thinks the coolant is. if it's below the temp measured
externally at the radiator feed, the sensor is /definitely/ out of spec.

 

on OBD-II cars,can't you read out what the CTS is reading for temperature
thru the diagnostic port?(with the proper scan tool?)

 

That's what jim means. You'd then compare that to what you get from the IR
thermometer aimed at the thermostat housing, where you'd expect 194F with
the engine at full-warm.

I'm baffled why this very simple problem is being treated like one of the
world's Great Unsolved Mysteries.

 

That's what jim means. You'd then compare that to what you get from the IR
thermometer aimed at the thermostat housing, where you'd expect 194F with
the engine at full-warm.

I'm baffled why this very simple problem is being treated like one of the
world's Great Unsolved Mysteries.

 

From my perspective, even this is tangential; I'm concerned with a
dealership's repeated inability (or refusal) to manage a simple warranty
repair, and American Honda's casual disregard of its warranty
obligations, let alone the moral and liability aspects of sending a
customer out the door with a documented safety issue unaddressed. This
should have been simple.

I'll never buy another Honda.

 

From my perspective, even this is tangential; I'm concerned with a
dealership's repeated inability (or refusal) to manage a simple warranty
repair, and American Honda's casual disregard of its warranty
obligations, let alone the moral and liability aspects of sending a
customer out the door with a documented safety issue unaddressed. This
should have been simple.

I'll never buy another Honda.

 

Hi Robert
I have been following this thread and have something for you to consider.

Honda makes very efficient engines, they are also as a rule small. The
combination means that there is a LIMITED amount of waste heat availible.

Consider that especially if the heater is at the max setting, there will
be a maximum amount of heat available for a given engine load (dependent
mainly on vehicle speed).

Given the fixed amount of waste heat available and the cooling effect of
the heater core, there will be a minimum outside air temperature that the
waste heat availible from the engine can support.

Colder than that temperature outside, the engine temperature will drop,
warmer than that temperature, the engine temperature will increase until
the thermostat opens. This is the "balance point" of your system.

If you read most good shop manuals they have a performance chart for air
conditioners that is analogous to this situation. At a certain outside
temperature, the capacity of the air conditioner becomes inadequate to cool
the car to a comfortable temperature.

I have only run into this situation once, living in north Texas. A college
roommate had a 74 Mercury capri with a 2.0 L engine and had the same
problem you had.(almost no heater below 20 degrees F). This engine had the
added problem of a water heated intake manifold. After a thorough
inspection I found that the engine air intake preheat tube (a baffle on the
exhaust manifold feeds hot air through a tube to the air cleaner) had been
disconnected. Simply reconnecting this tube lowered the coolant heat loss
to the intake manifold enough to tip the balance and make the heater work
correctly.

The only easy test I can come up with to see if your engine is
overcooling because of excess heat loss to the heater core is this:
Clamp off either one of the radiator hoses and drive the car. A defective
thermostat will not allow the engine to overcool because the radiator is
disabled. If it still overcools, then the only place that the heat is going
is out of the heater core and there is not a bad thermostat. No disassembly
required and you can buy clamps for this at a lot of tool stores, they are
used to do repairs without draining coolant.

A lot of the responders to your posts think that the heater core cannot
overcool the engine. This may be correct with large heavy vehicles with
large engines, but a small engine CAN be overcooled with a low enough
outside air temperature.
I realise you may think your problem is solved by the new thermostat, but
consider that you have not driven again at -36 degrees C. The balance point
for your heater and driving conditions may not have been met and may not
until next year when colder temperatures return.

The bad news is that there is no way to modify your engine to solve the
heater problem without a lot of engineering that would have to be done by
Honda, as an optional "arctic kit" or some such. That means a lot of r+d
for 1/10 of 1% of the cars they make. I doubt that it will happen. If I
was you I would try to fabricate a cover for your oil pan made of cardboard
or some such material to insulate and prevent heat loss from cold air
blowing across the oil pan and cooling the oil, but this would be a pain in
the butt to install and take off as outside temperatures increase to the
point where the oil would overheat.

Good luck
Scott

 

Hi Robert
I have been following this thread and have something for you to consider.

Honda makes very efficient engines, they are also as a rule small. The
combination means that there is a LIMITED amount of waste heat availible.

Consider that especially if the heater is at the max setting, there will
be a maximum amount of heat available for a given engine load (dependent
mainly on vehicle speed).

Given the fixed amount of waste heat available and the cooling effect of
the heater core, there will be a minimum outside air temperature that the
waste heat availible from the engine can support.

Colder than that temperature outside, the engine temperature will drop,
warmer than that temperature, the engine temperature will increase until
the thermostat opens. This is the "balance point" of your system.

If you read most good shop manuals they have a performance chart for air
conditioners that is analogous to this situation. At a certain outside
temperature, the capacity of the air conditioner becomes inadequate to cool
the car to a comfortable temperature.

I have only run into this situation once, living in north Texas. A college
roommate had a 74 Mercury capri with a 2.0 L engine and had the same
problem you had.(almost no heater below 20 degrees F). This engine had the
added problem of a water heated intake manifold. After a thorough
inspection I found that the engine air intake preheat tube (a baffle on the
exhaust manifold feeds hot air through a tube to the air cleaner) had been
disconnected. Simply reconnecting this tube lowered the coolant heat loss
to the intake manifold enough to tip the balance and make the heater work
correctly.

The only easy test I can come up with to see if your engine is
overcooling because of excess heat loss to the heater core is this:
Clamp off either one of the radiator hoses and drive the car. A defective
thermostat will not allow the engine to overcool because the radiator is
disabled. If it still overcools, then the only place that the heat is going
is out of the heater core and there is not a bad thermostat. No disassembly
required and you can buy clamps for this at a lot of tool stores, they are
used to do repairs without draining coolant.

A lot of the responders to your posts think that the heater core cannot
overcool the engine. This may be correct with large heavy vehicles with
large engines, but a small engine CAN be overcooled with a low enough
outside air temperature.
I realise you may think your problem is solved by the new thermostat, but
consider that you have not driven again at -36 degrees C. The balance point
for your heater and driving conditions may not have been met and may not
until next year when colder temperatures return.

The bad news is that there is no way to modify your engine to solve the
heater problem without a lot of engineering that would have to be done by
Honda, as an optional "arctic kit" or some such. That means a lot of r+d
for 1/10 of 1% of the cars they make. I doubt that it will happen. If I
was you I would try to fabricate a cover for your oil pan made of cardboard
or some such material to insulate and prevent heat loss from cold air
blowing across the oil pan and cooling the oil, but this would be a pain in
the butt to install and take off as outside temperatures increase to the
point where the oil would overheat.

Good luck
Scott

 

I have to agree. Modern engines are more efficient than we old-timers
appreciate. A friend's daughter is going to college in town so he asked me
to look at her 2001 Ford Focus. It was overheating within minutes of getting
on the freeway but was no problem in town. I found the radiator 99%
plugged - blowing through it was like blowing through a couple of soda
straws. The radiator was not doing anything - it didn't even get more than a
little warm when the engine overheated - but the temperature was still okay
(not regulating, but you can't tell that from the Ford temp guage which,
like their oil guages, is an idiot light in guage form).

Adding baffles to the grill to keep cold air from bathing the engine may be
the best answer, and the pipe insulation is a good choice.

Mike

 

I have to agree. Modern engines are more efficient than we old-timers
appreciate. A friend's daughter is going to college in town so he asked me
to look at her 2001 Ford Focus. It was overheating within minutes of getting
on the freeway but was no problem in town. I found the radiator 99%
plugged - blowing through it was like blowing through a couple of soda
straws. The radiator was not doing anything - it didn't even get more than a
little warm when the engine overheated - but the temperature was still okay
(not regulating, but you can't tell that from the Ford temp guage which,
like their oil guages, is an idiot light in guage form).

Adding baffles to the grill to keep cold air from bathing the engine may be
the best answer, and the pipe insulation is a good choice.

Mike

 

yes, but if the sensor goes out of spec, as i now know can happen, that
reading is incorrect and you need an independent verification.

 

probably just as well - despite the fact that you're correct, you're whiny
and irritating. who wants to spend time trying to filter out the facts
from all the crap?.