1988 Honda Accord won't idle when warmed up

Discussion in 'Accord' started by kdavis1056, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. kdavis1056

    kdavis1056 Guest

    On the way to work last week, my Accord died on me when I took it out
    of gear (manual trans) as I approached a stop. It restarted but, would
    not idle unless I held my foot on the accelerator and kept it at about
    1000 rpms. When it's cold, it idles fine but as soon as it warms up
    you can watch the rpms drop and it will die. Restart and hold the
    accelerator and its fine. I've read that it could be clogged fuel
    filter(s) or something to do with the carb. I don't have the money to
    take to someone to have it fixed so, I'll have to do it myself and I
    don't have the money to replace this and that. BTW it's carburated
    not fuel injected. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
     
    kdavis1056, Jan 23, 2008
    #1
  2. kdavis1056

    jim beam Guest

    check all your vacuum hoses.
     
    jim beam, Jan 24, 2008
    #2
  3. kdavis1056

    motsco_ Guest

    --------------------

    I think it depends on the flow of HOT coolant to set some of the
    carburetor's controls. Fill your reservoir to the MAX mark three days in
    a row and see if your troubles go away.

    'Curly'
     
    motsco_, Jan 24, 2008
    #3
  4. kdavis1056

    ottguit Guest

    PCV Valve?
    Bg
     
    ottguit, Jan 24, 2008
    #4
  5. kdavis1056

    bi241 Guest


    When the engine is cold, it runs at higher rpm until the Fast Idle
    Unloader pulls the fast idle cam. From what i understand, in 86-89
    accord carbureted, the FIU is controled by a thermo valve. It seems to
    be working, changing idle speed as the engine temp changes .

    The problem is that now the FIU has pulled the cam, then the idle
    speed depends on the throttle stop screw and throttle cable (TC). A TC
    hardly needs adjustment but the throttle stop screw is susceptible to
    shocks and vibrations if not secured properly. I would suggest an
    adjustment of this item. No tools required ( tool-free style screw)

    If you can get the desired idle speed after adjusting this, then make
    sure that the throttle cable has enough free play (deflection)

    If all fail, then you may need to take a look at the idle mixture
    screw, but that should be best let to a shop.
     
    bi241, Jan 24, 2008
    #5
  6. kdavis1056

    Tegger Guest

    wrote in


    Could be that...

    Could also simply be plugged idle jets.

    The throttle plate is held slightly open when cold, then is allowed to
    close as the engine reaches full op temperature. This means the idle
    jets don't control idle until the throttle is fully closed, which is
    just about the time the car stalls.

    When the OP holds the throttle open, he is shutting down the idle jet
    and using other fuel delivery paths, which are not blocked.

    If plugged jets are in fact the problem, some compressed air down the
    idle speed screw hole should cure that fairly cheaply. Clean the gum and
    sediment out of the float bowl as well.
     
    Tegger, Jan 24, 2008
    #6
  7. kdavis1056

    dan Guest

    I had a similar problem with my '88 carbureted accord. I would be
    driving in stop and go traffic and the engine would just cut out on me.
    I could always restart it but like your problem, I would have to keep
    it revved up a bit to keep it going. I changed the fuel pump, cleaned
    and checked everything I could think of.

    Finally, I was testing the "primary slow mixture cut-off solenoid valve"
    on the back of the carburetor. It's held in with one screw. It has one
    wire that energizes the solenoid, and it gets its ground from the
    connection to the carburetor. Turned out that over time (17+ years
    then, 20 now) the grounding went bad or oxidized to the point of
    failure. I simply scratched up the surfaces on the solenoid and
    carburetor with sandpaper and no more problem.

    I have put this solution out there before, but it can't hurt to post it
    again. I hope it helps save a few nice old carbed accords! :)

    dan
     
    dan, Jan 24, 2008
    #7
  8. kdavis1056

    RLBeldon Guest

    wrote in @c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:
    This is not a carb problem, but a 'pre-heated air' delivery problem.
    Check and repair the vacuum line to the air diversion damper
    in the air intake. The carb needs 100+ deg F air in the Winter.
    Pre-heated air from the exhaust manifold prevents frost and ice
    build up and might boost your mpg a touch. This happened on my '87
    years ago and a five minute fix was all that was needed. Good luck.
     
    RLBeldon, Jan 25, 2008
    #8
  9. kdavis1056

    M.A. Stewart Guest


    For the OP, this ground problem could be ruled out by simply using
    a lead from a VOM meter. By taking the sharp pointy end of the
    lead, and getting a good connection on the slow mixture valve
    (at its bracket where the hold down screw is), and connecting the
    other end of the lead to the battery negative post, the car would
    idle, if the ground was the culprit. A helper would be needed to
    hold the engine speed up, to prevent stalling. With a good connection,
    the helper lets off the gas pedal, and the engine would then idle.

    With a manual trans carb Accord, the normal operation of this valve can be
    felt while driving (its subtle). The valve is suppose to close (no fuel
    supply to the idle circuit) above 15 MPH/24 [Km/h] (approximately
    1700 rpm in second gear). Coast down from 2500 rpm, in second
    gear, to about 1200 RPM and you can feel the valve open (fuel supplied
    to the idle circuit) at approximately 1700 rpm. The deceleration from
    2500 (or above) down to when the valve opens, is very consistent. When
    the valve opens (idle circuit now receiving fuel) the deceleration is
    less (engine receiving a fuel mixture from the idle circuit and providing
    a little power).

    A switch on the clutch pedal overrides the fuel cut off (opens the valve)
    when shifting gears.
     
    M.A. Stewart, Jan 25, 2008
    #9
  10. kdavis1056

    dan Guest

    Gee, I should have thought of opening the hood in stop and go traffic,
    jumping out and jambing a lead from a VOM meter into the "slow mixture
    valve", which I was careful to call the "primary slow mixture cut-off
    solenoid valve" as in the factory service manual, IN TRAFFIC. It was
    INTERMITTENT! Meaning it would happen when the car was warm, and when I
    would least expect it to happen. As the OP said, it only happens when
    the car is warmed up, or in other words, in TRAFFIC!

    It's an intermittent ground. They don't like to do bad things when
    you're watching.

    I think it is actually a poor design. But that's moot since no Honda
    has had a carburetor for at least 15 years? (?).

    dan
     
    dan, Jan 26, 2008
    #10
  11. kdavis1056

    Tegger Guest



    You could simply put the front end up on stands, you know.

    M.A. Stewart has some pretty good advice. I'd forgot about that solenoid,
    not having much experience with feedback carbs.



    Sure it's a poor design. All feedback carbs are poor designs. And your
    friendly federal EPA is the felon here, for having mandated bizarre and
    unnatural complications into what used to be a very simple device. The EPA
    is the reason no American/Canadian car has had a carb since 1989.
     
    Tegger, Jan 26, 2008
    #11
  12. kdavis1056

    jim beam Guest

    that's a bad thing. however...

    this is a good thing - fuel injection is much more reliable. detroit
    would never have made this move without legislation, and we're all much
    better off as a result.
     
    jim beam, Jan 26, 2008
    #12
  13. kdavis1056

    Tegger Guest


    Detroit attempted fuel injection as early as 1957 (Corvette), making
    repeated assaults throughout the decades leading up to the total changeover
    to computerized injection around 1989.

    The 1976 Cadillac Sedan DeVille had TBI injection. Hemmings magazine
    (Oct/07) reports it was "a bit lean at idle" but otherwise worked well.
    Huge cost ruled it out for lesser models, and it was phased out later on
    due to complications having to do with the then-crude control system.

    The 1982 Chrysler Imperial originally had injection, but all of them were
    recalled, again due to control problems and retrofitted with a carburetor.
    Hemmings recently covered this one as well, but I can't find that issue
    just now.

    Ford began installing Bosch-derived TBI injection in some models as early
    as 1980.

    The domestics and the Germans (Bosch L-Jetronic) were far in the vanguard
    over the years, well ahead of the Japanese. The Japanese were content to
    timidly produce what worked well and did not result in lost sales on
    account of poor reliability, accounting for their late entry into the fuel
    injection club. Toyota's MR-2 was one of the first port-injected Japanese
    cars, appearing in late 1984 with a copy of Bosch's L-Jetronic system.

    Honda dutifully followed the other Japanese makers in slowly introducing
    injection in the mid-'80s on selected models, but held off where they
    could, as long as they could, to keep costs down.
     
    Tegger, Jan 26, 2008
    #13
  14. kdavis1056

    jim beam Guest

    again, detroit [or anybody else] would never have made this move [into
    the mainstream] without legislation. and the result is better reliability.

    sure, plenty of people had messed about with gasoline injection - the
    nazi fighter plane, the me109, or variants of it, had fuel injection
    back in ww2. but since injection's gone mainstream because of law,
    costs have gone down due to volume, and reliability has gone up for
    consumers. it's a win for both sides.
     
    jim beam, Jan 26, 2008
    #14
  15. kdavis1056

    Tegger Guest



    You originally and specifically said "detroit would never have made this
    move without legislation".

    I demonstrated that Detroit had been tinkering (and installing) for several
    decades before there was any forcible conversion to injection.

    The Japanese waited until pretty much the last minute, when they then had
    no choice, when emissions regs forced them to convert.

    Fuel injection has several important advantages over carburetion, notably
    much better driveability and efficiency. I submit that fuel injection would
    eventually have become commonplace in North America even in the absence of
    regulations. The traditional primary difficulties for fuel injection were
    cost and control. Cheap computing power eventually solved both of those,
    but by then the regulations were on the march. So we'll never know now...
     
    Tegger, Jan 27, 2008
    #15

  16. Or... (This is a shot in the dark here), it could be a malfunctioning
    idle cutoff valve.

    JT
     
    Grumpy AuContraire, Jan 27, 2008
    #16
  17. Tegger wrote:




    Don't get me started.
    Don't get me started.
    Don't get me started.
    Don't get me started.
    Don't get me started.

    JT

    (Who would love to find real EN1 and EM1 engines...)
     
    Grumpy AuContraire, Jan 27, 2008
    #17

  18. Poppycock!

    In the olde dayz, when things were simple, carbed cars were easy to work
    on and a helluva lot less 'xpensive to work on.

    That's exactly why my cutoff date for Honda ownership is 1983. After
    that milestone, things REALLY got complicated.

    JT
     
    Grumpy AuContraire, Jan 27, 2008
    #18
  19. kdavis1056

    jim beam Guest

    poppycock yourself. as a guy that can strip, clean, repair and
    calibrate pretty much any carb you care to put in front of me, i'll take
    electronic injection any day. for regular form and function, carbs just
    can't compete.

    the only exception i'd give you in that is racing - a pair of dcoe40
    weber's at full throttle are quite excellent.
     
    jim beam, Jan 27, 2008
    #19
  20. kdavis1056

    ACAR Guest

    On Jan 27, 12:47 pm, Grumpy AuContraire <>
    wrote:
    snip
    I can vouch for that. I used to have a photo of a buddy and me
    standing on the fender of a pickup, pissing onto a frozen carburetor
    to de-ice it. After several such applications (good thing our group of
    five had several thermos' filled with coffee) we were successful and
    were able to drive back into Prudhoe Bay.
    While lots of early fuel injectors were not especially reliable the
    new ones are. I gotta agree with the folks who propose that current
    fuel injection systems are very reliable (especially if you stick to
    Top Tier gasolines).

    JT is right that when a fuel injection system goes TU the fix can
    often be expensive and difficult to diagnose. Of course, the same
    could be said for any number of systems built into today's cars.
     
    ACAR, Jan 28, 2008
    #20
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