1990 Civic Wagon with Periodic Starting Problem

I have a 1990 Honda Civic station wagon with 226,000 miles. I have
maintained it well (plugs, wires, coil a few years ago, distributor,
fuel filter, etc.). It runs great and gets 31,000 mpg in town. Here
is my problem, which has gone on periodically for several years:
sometimes the car won't start. The engine will turn over, but won't
catch (the check engine light does come on while it cranks). This
usually happens during hotter weather. It gives me no problem in the
winter, but now that the weather's warmer here (I'm in GA), the
problem is recurring. It's especially bad when I turn off the car
briefly (to buy gas)then try to restart it. I just have to sit there
and wait a few minutes, try again, wait, try again, and when it's
ready, it will start as soon as I turn the key. The car either starts
immediately or cranks and cranks and does not start at all. Once it
starts, it runs great. If I wait long enough, it will start (sometimes
as long as 30 minutes). Then, the problem may not happen again for
several days. There is no pattern. I've noticed that if I wait until
later in the day to start my car, and the windows have not been
lowered to help cool the inside, it will not start.

My mechanic had it hooked up to diagnosis for half a day, turning it
off and restarting it, but of course it functioned perfectly with
them. They said that they could find nothing obviously wrong, and
unless the car could produce the problem while hooked up to the
machine, they couldn't find the cause. They said they didn't think it
was the ignition, but I wonder. If the inside of the car is really
hot, it seems not to start. Any suggestions for me or my mechanic will
be greatly appreciated.

OS

 

(OS) wrote in

Main relay!!
http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm

 

Agreed. Many reports of this exact problem (including the symptoms you describe
above) occur here at the newsgroup for early 1990s Hondas. I myself had this
problem with my 1991 Civic. I replaced the relay in 1999, 105k miles. No
problems 47k miles and five years since.

I'll just add that the site above and others advocate repairing the main (fuel)
relay. But it's fine just to replace the thing altogether. The relay should cost
you under $50 from an online site such as
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catdisplay.jsp . If you have
trouble finding the part at the site, e-mail: , or
call toll free 1.800.341.4113.

Getting the relay out can be annoying but it's doable, even by an amateur.

 

<snip>

By my calculations, you've only used 7.29 gallons of gas in this car;
way to go!

--
RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
I'm going to tell you something now and I want you to listen very
carefully: The fact of the matter is, and there's no getting around
it... I like prefatory remarks.

 

The old main relay problem...Is it that time of the year again?

It amazes (and really annoys) me that authorized Honda garages don't know
about this...I had the same problem myself 4 years ago with my 89 Prelude. I
took it to 3 garages, and none of them could fix it...this NG sorted it,
though - thanks guys...

Ali

 

I'd have the relay fixed by the time you received your new relay in the
mail,or by the time you got back from the dealership.

Re-soldering the relay is EASY,and you don't have to give someone $50 for
another relay that could develop (or already have)the same problem.

 

Considering how hard the thing is to get out of many (all?) Hondas, I am not
confident of the second.

Maybe you have other information, but I have not heard of this problem repeating
once a completely new relay is installed.

I am less confident of the problem not repeating following a re-solder job.

Still, if you or others say you've re-soldered once and only once and never had
a recurrence, and on many cars' main fuel relays, then of course your point is
well-taken.

 

(OS) wrote in message
Thank you all for your responses. I went to the website provided by
Jim Yanik on main relays, read the symptoms, and could not believe it!
It gave exactly the same symptoms that I'm having, except in more
detail, including buying gas, then not being able to restart the car!
I'm going to print it out and take it to the mechanic, along with a
main relay (I hope they know how to solder--that's the only reason I
won't do it myself). I'll look for one locally at Autozone or online,
possibly. What a great newsgroup--I really did not expect any
responses, since that has been the case with my limited newsgroup
usage. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks again!

 

Caroline wrote:
|| I'd have the relay fixed by the time you received your new relay in
|| the mail,or by the time you got back from the dealership.
|
| Considering how hard the thing is to get out of many (all?) Hondas,
| I am not confident of the second.

Taking it out/putting it back: took me about an hour and several attempts,
ended up with somewhat scratched hands.

Resoldering it: took me about a minute

|| Re-soldering the relay is EASY,and you don't have to give someone
|| $50 for another relay that could develop (or already have)the same
|| problem.
|
| Maybe you have other information, but I have not heard of this
| problem repeating once a completely new relay is installed.
|
| I am less confident of the problem not repeating following a
| re-solder job.

Soldering in an environment like a car can be iffy. There's lots of
temperature changes, and *lots* of vibrations; both are things that solder
joints don't like. They do tend to develop cracks, especially if you have
large weights (like a relays on a PCB) attached to them. Resoldering, if
done correctly, should give you the same life as the original solder joint,
i.e., another 10 or 15 years. And if you still have the car and it breaks
again, you know how to get it out and do it again for another 10 years

|| Still, if you or others say you've re-soldered once and only once
|| and never had a recurrence, and on many cars' main fuel relays, then
|| of course your point is well-taken.

No problems so far, but it's only been about half a year since.

 

I've had a soft spot in my head for them ole Civic Wagons since I had
one years ago that my neighbor sold me. Wish I could find one of the
last ones made, with fuel injection and the 5 speed, and no rust! bob

 

snip for conciseness, but all points noted

Well then maybe I'll give soldering a whirl if and when my car's main fuel relay
fails again. I am as interested in saving a buck (about $38 to be exact) as the
next person. I've got the cheap-o soldering iron (which
http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm says is
fine and maybe even preferred) all ready.

Thanks for the report.

 

Who solders it IN the car? I took mine inside and did it at my workbench.

Or your solder may be more resistant to cracks than the original alloy.
Solder used for wave-soldering is different than repair solder.Lots of bad
solder joints during manufacture,that's why they have line techs at the end
to fix such problems,and many still get through.

And if you repair a 10 yr old car and then have to do it again in ANOTHER
10 years,for a total of 20 years,so what? You still save $50.
And it's damn good that your car lasted THAT long!

 

(OS) wrote in

I suspect your dealer will NOT re-solder the original relay,they'd rather
sell you a new relay;they profit from the sale and the installation.

And they may not know how to solder either!

But good luck,I hope this fixes your car,and I'm glad to be of some help!

 

Jim Yanik wrote:
||
|| Soldering in an environment like a car can be iffy.
|
| Who solders it IN the car? I took mine inside and did it at my
| workbench.

Heh... that got across the wrong way. I was trying to say that solder
connections can be iffy in a car, because of the mentioned environmental
factors. Usually, crimping will outlast soldering, but it's kinda hard to
crimp things like a relay

Of course I took out the relays inside and re-soldered it there...

 

I suspect your dealer will NOT re-solder the original relay,they'd rather

I talked to my mechanic (not a Honda dealer, just a chain--Tires
Plus), and he knew exactly what I was talking about with the main
relay. He does know how to solder, but I'm just going to order a new
part (my preference), but he says it has to come from the Honda
dealer. I'll also call the Honda automotive website on Monday that
someone provided, because the part isn't listed on their site. I'm
assuming that I can install a new one, but I can't find the old one.
I've looked all under the dash. The mechanic said you can pull relays
all day and not get the right one. I may have to let him find it.

 

Por que?

Online parts sites sell OEM, too.

Of course, delivery might take a week.

Not this one. I'm an amateur, and there's only one relay (really, a "relay
assembly") that looks anything like the picture at
http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm .

It is tucked up in there (on the driver's dash side, on the left, maybe a few
inches above knee height) on some Honda models though.

It helps to have the new one in your hand, to match up shapes and maybe, but not
necessarily, colors.

I was originally going to have an import shop fix mine in 1999, but they were
busy. I asked the mechanic if maybe he could point it out to me. He graciously
took a couple of minutes and got in there with a flashlight and did.

Then I took the hour and acquired the scratched up knuckles wrangling the thing
out, like Tomb wrote.

 

Caroline wrote:
|||| I suspect your dealer will NOT re-solder the original relay,they'd
|||| rather sell you a new relay;they profit from the sale and the
|||| installation.
||||
|||| And they may not know how to solder either!
||||
|||| But good luck,I hope this fixes your car,and I'm glad to be of
|||| some help!
|||
||| I talked to my mechanic (not a Honda dealer, just a chain--Tires
||| Plus), and he knew exactly what I was talking about with the main
||| relay. He does know how to solder, but I'm just going to order a
||| new
||| part (my preference), but he says it has to come from the Honda
||| dealer.
||
|| Por que?
||
|| Online parts sites sell OEM, too.
||
|| Of course, delivery might take a week.
||
||| I'll also call the Honda automotive website on Monday that
||| someone provided, because the part isn't listed on their site. I'm
||| assuming that I can install a new one, but I can't find the old one.
||| I've looked all under the dash. The mechanic said you can pull
||| relays
||| all day and not get the right one.
||
|| Not this one. I'm an amateur, and there's only one relay (really, a
|| "relay assembly") that looks anything like the picture at
|| http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm

Not to mention it's behind the "cover"... it's left of the fusebox, outside
of view. If you peek through the few holes in the plastic dash area, you can
see it.

|| It is tucked up in there (on the driver's dash side, on the left,
|| maybe a few inches above knee height) on some Honda models though.

And use your ears. That's how I found it easiest; switch your ignition from
off to run (not start), then you hear a click................click. The
source of the click is the main relay

 

I found mine pretty easily,after looking at the
http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm .
website.

I did remove the lower dash cowling for easier access.It wasn't too hard in
my Integra.

 

Likewise, I think I also removed some part of the left dash to get at the main
relay, and this helped. But it still wasn't easy on my 91 Civic LX

 

Caroline wrote:
||| I found mine pretty easily,after looking at the
||| http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm
||| . website.
|||
||| I did remove the lower dash cowling for easier access.It wasn't too
||| hard in my Integra.
||
|| Likewise, I think I also removed some part of the left dash to get
|| at the main relay, and this helped. But it still wasn't easy on my
|| 91 Civic LX

All I managed to remove was the coin holder (88 Civic LX). I couldn't figure
out how to remove the lower dash cowling... or couldn't be bothered to to