1997 honda civic hardstart

Hi All,

I have been reading similar problems here in this forum but i have not
been able to get a good answer to my civic problem.

The car's hardstart problem have been around for quite sometime now
and local technicians HAVE NOT been able to fix it. Unfortunately, we
do not have a HONDA dealer in our small city here.

Here are the symptoms:
1.0 Easy to start in the morning but it is really difficult to start
when the engine is HOT or after the engine has been turned off after a
30-minute cruise on the highway.
2.0 It often happens when I dropped by a gas station after that long
trip - i switch the engine off and after i had one full tank, it is
difficult to start the engine over. I hear my starter working but
cannot turn the engine over. So i have to press the gas pedal until
the engine rolls after several tries.
3.0 I smell gas everytime i have to press the gas pedal to turn the
engine on.
4.0 I hear the regular 'clicks' when i switch my keys to ON that means
my fuel tank is working right (i think).
5.0 When the engine would not roll-over when starting, i have to wait
for about 30 minutes to cool the engine and after that, it would start
fine already.
6.0 This means that when the engine is really that hot, i could only
hear the miserable starter rolling but not my engine.
7.0 Recently done: Cleaning of the distributor cap, cleaning of spark
plugs, and putting an STP fuel injector into the gas tank to NO AVAIL.

What do you think is the problem?

jaydee
..

 

To add to my other problem highlighted here, i also noticed that my
radiator loses water at the end of the day. Every morning before
leaving home, i have to add 500ml of coolant into the radiator to make
sure that the engine won't overheat ( drove around about 30kms to my
office everyday and 30kms back home). I have been checking where it
might have leaks but to no avail. I don't see any sign of leak. The
water level in the resorvoir seems unchanged from the morning i left
and after coming back home.

This has been the case for several weeks now. Is this related to the
hardstart i am experiencing with this car?

Please help.

 

You may have a bad head gasket. Top off your radiator and leave the cap
off. Have a friend crank the engine. If the coolant bubbles out of the
radiator, that would explain all of your problems.

 

---------------------------------

If your reservoir doesn't fluctuate, there's a major air leek in the
system, possibly in the cap or a hose. Hopefully not the head gasket.

'Curly'

 

Hi Robert, Curly,

Thanks for your answers. If I have a head gasket failure, would this
cause my hardstart problem? I replaced my radiator cap today so I have
to check later tonight if water in the reservoir have been used up
into the radiator.

If the cap is Ok, what do you think might have caused my problem in
starting up the engine? Can you please elaborate more as I am a novice
to engines.

Thank you.

 

Thanks guys for your thoughts.

 

yeah, betcha that's it; when the engine is hot, the coolant is
pressurized, leaks into combustion chamber or intake, makes it hard to
start. not so much of a problem once the engine does get running,
however.

overnight, pressure drops, whatever water has already sprayed in
probably drains out into oil. you should take a look at the oil, see
if it looks like it's got water mixed in, sort of like mayonnaise,
(which is basically oil and water mixed).

now, you say "I hear my starter working but cannot turn the engine
over." do you mean it rotates but does not fire, or are you saying it
doesn't even rotate?

has the engine ever overheated? that's a prime risk for blown head
gaskets and suchlike. might take a year or more to appear after the
overheating.

 

hardly ever get that on a honda - pressure leakage from the cylinders is
confined to the water jacket, and the oil passages are well sealed so no
coolant gets into the oil. commonest symptom is excess pressure in the
coolant.

 

A rich mixture aids to a cold start and makes warm starting a
biatch!!

When the engine is hot, You can try pressing the gas pedal all the way
to the floor and HOLDING it there while starting. A wide open throttle
will compomise a rich condition

If that's the case, I suspect a faulty O2 sensor. How's your fuel
economy (mpg)?

 

Reply: I have not seen any water mixed in the engine oil.

Reply: The starter rotates but it doesnt fire the engine.

Reply: Yes, the engine has overheated a year ago. What the shop did
was to reface the cylinder head.
But then, here comes this problem now. Somehow the radiator is
pressurized. I see bubbles looking at the top of the radiator.

 

"hardly ever get that on a honda - pressure leakage from the cylinders
is
confined to the water jacket, and the oil passages are well sealed so
no
coolant gets into the oil.  commonest symptom is excess pressure in
the
coolant."


Jim, thanks. I do get excess pressure in the coolant. So i really have
a failed cylinder head? The cylinder head have been refaced already
since i had the car overheated a year ago.

Thank you.

 

bad news - the guys that did your head last time were just creatures of
habit - they didn't understand what they were doing. skimming the head,
unless it's necessary because the head is warped, is a really bad idea -
it throws the cam timing out and unless done to factory spec [highly
unlikely] won't have the surface finish necessary to form a good seal.
iow, the head is now toast. it probably would have been fine if they'd
left it and just cleaned it [but cleaning is a pita].

now your choices are:
1. buy a new head - way expensive.
2. buy a used head from a junkyard - much cheaper, but a lot of work.
3. buy a whole new [low mileage used] jdm engine and simply replace the
motor.

for the money and effort required, i'd go with #3. these engines cost
$400-$500 unless you have the vtec or twin cam, and the labor to replace
is a lot less than the labor on prepping the motor for a new head.

good luck. don't use the same people that did the last work.

also, consider replacing the radiator if you haven't already done so.
they have a life of about 10 years, and when they crack, the engine
cooks and you'll need a new head gasket!

 

Jim, again thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.

I've been asking around here regarding buying a surplus cylinder head.
Suppliers here in our country confirm that there are available surplus
cylinder made from Japan. If I have to convert it to dollar, the cost
of the cylinder head including the cam and rocker arms would only be
$340 - $360 (i am from asia). Do you think this is worth buying? I
mean it's cheaper than buying a new or low mileage engine but can i
similarly trust the head's quality?

Just last weekend, i approached a shop (200kms away from us) that
specializes in HONDA engines to do all test to check why I have
difficulty starting when the engine is hot. They found out the
following:
1.0 I have small leaks on my radiator. (this has been repaired today)
2.0 They found that two of my four cylinders have low compression -
position 2 and 3. Position 1 and 4 is ok according to them.

I also mentioned I overheated the car and they recommended an overhaul
- to see if my cylinder head is warped and how the pistons conditions
are. So I see that I don't just need a cylinder head replacement but
probably piston sets for the two cylinders having low compression?
Would I still need the block also replaced aside from the cylinder
head?

The local shop which i approached told me it would still be okay to
run the car despite the leaking radiator and low compression engine.
Unfortunately after coming out from the shop and after travelling
about 130kms going back home, the oil pressure and the battery warning
lights flashed telling me there's something wrong with the engine. It
happened as I go downhill after going through uphill. The WORST thing
that happened to my automatic car when the lights flashed was that the
breaks has been disabled and I could no longer use the breaks. I used
the handbreak instead to stop the car. It was almost an ACCIDENT...

Again, thank you very much. I really appreciate all the thoughts you
have today.

I think this is the price of my limited knowledge on engines...Good
thing there are forums like this to help me understand.

JD

 

So I dont get a rich mixture already when the engine is hot...
I have been starting this car with the gas PEDAL all the way to the
floor and it helps the engine start (this is only when the engine is
hot to start the car).

Where can I find the O2 sensor if thats the problem??? I have a lower
gas mileage these days...
Isn't this related to the overheating problem I have beed discussing?

Thank you very much also for your thoughts.

JD

 

Did the overheating problem come a while after the hard start problem?
If that's the case, then yes it's related

When the O2 sensor fails, it defaults the ECU to command a wet mixture
as a fail-safe measure, cause a dry mixture will overheat the engine
instantly.
That allows you to continue driving between repairs. The thing is, it
may not throw a code, or if it does, the code may not be reproduced
after you reset the ECU.

Now, a wet mixture is a burden to the cat converter. If such condition
persists for a certain period of time, then the cat will become
clogged, and when that happen, the headers go red-hot and overload the
cooling system.

Oh boy, you just open a full can or worms... lol

 

I had the overheating a year ago. I don't have any clue actually if
the flashing of the oil pressure and battery lights are symptoms of
overheating now but according to the technician who helped tow the
car, it was due to overheating. Here's the big BUT: the temperature
gauge DID not rose to the maximum indicating that i really have the
problem of overheating. The car's engine just turned off after
flashing the two lights - oil pressure and battery lights...What is
this indication? Overheating or O2 sensor failure?

I have difficulty understanding if this is overheating since I have
still lots of water remaining in the radiator (about 3 liters left and
1 liter was gone due to the small leaks). Probably the engine turned
off because there's just too much air pressure already in the cooling
system? How about head gasket failure?

When the two lights are on, what happened is that the brakes and gas
pedals are disabled making it difficult to stop the car using its own
brake. I have to use the parking or hand brake to stop the car.

JD

 

i'm wondering if you're driving a US version of Honda Civic in Asia? I
don't know about now, but a while back folks in Asia lived with a
blissful ignorance of emission controls in motor vehiles and their ill-
effects on the engines when emission components start to fail.

Catalytic converter is an ill-conceived idea, if you ask me. It was
invented because Detroit was unable to produce fuel efficiency
engines. So there came the cat converter as a convenience and a band-
aid to gas-guzzling, hot-rod pieces of sh*t.

Japanese manufacturers took the cat converter negatively when it was
first introduced. But then again, they wanted their cakes in North
American market, no? Well, i gutted my Honda cat converter, before it
has a chance to f*ck up my ride.

Global warming caused by emission? F*ck that bullsh*t. Why did the
dinosaurs come to an extinction? They warmed the globe by the emission
from their buttholes? haha

Anyways, your car is severly overheated. Don't drive it until you fix
it!!!

 

Hahaha. One more question: Do cars experience OVERHEATING without the
temp gauge RISING to the maximum???
The Civic here I think is just the same with the US versions - VTEC,
16 valve etc...

JD

 

You said your Civic is an automatic, that makes me wonder if you have
an US version. 99% of folks in Asia drive manual, regardless of
makes.

The same Honda year/model for different markets have the same engine
mechanical, the differences are in emission controls. In this case,
two mechanically identical engines may be designated two different
model names. Check to find out what kind of emission controls your
care is equipped with.

Now for your question. In most Hondas, the temp gauge sender
(seperated from the coolant temp sensor) feeds the gauge on your dash
board. It may not function properly, telling you the the engine is
cool when it's hot, and vice versa. Not sure about the its location on
a 97 Civic

But the temp gauge sender usualy has one wire, disconnect this wire
from the sender and ground it. Now, insert the key and turn it to ON
(II), you should see the gauge at the maximum. If not, replace the
sender. And do not leave the wire grounded for more than few seconds
or you risk damaging the gauge.

Cheers

 

rubbish. the gasket is bridged between the two middle cylinders -
common for a blown head gasket. no need to replace pistons for that.

sounds like your engine is toast.

regarding the repair/replace question, these guys sound both incompetent
and a bunch of hosers. unfortunately, if they think you don't know
enough to challenge them, most car repair shops will recommend what
makes them the most money - replacing just the cylinder head. these
guys are going way beyond that.

simply replacing the engine, while a couple of hundred dollars more
expensive on the buy side compared to just a cylinder head [not
rebuilding the block like they're saying], is substantially cheaper on
the labor side. add a total rebuild and you're looking at thousands of
dollars.

regarding replacement otoh, most experienced honda techs can have the
engine out in less than an hour. just a little more to put one back in.
replacing the cylinder head is about the same disassembly time, a
whole bunch of time cleaning, checking and prepping, then a bunch of
time putting the whole thing back together again. assuming they don't
"discover" more problems of course. and on top of that if they do
rebuild, as you've just discovered, there is a high probability of
reliability problems afterwards!

bottom line, you'll need to check the comparative costs for your
location, but if you're not doing the work yourself, i say the balance
is strongly in favor of simply replacing the whole motor. call around
for quotes. most replacement engine importers will ship to wherever you
say, so just choose a repair shop from whom you have a firm engine
replacement labor quote, and have it shipped to them to do the swap.
and make sure you also replace the radiator - its slow failure is what
caused the problem in the first place!!!