1997 Honda Civic question

I don't know if anyone remembers the other post I had, but we are still
having the same problem.

Everything has been checked - the car has spark, fuel, and air. Any
suggestions?

 

You actually see the injector spray gas into the throttle body during
starting?

 

The order to check is ignition, fuel, compression.

If you're sure about the ignition and fuel systems, do a compression check.
You might have a broken timing belt.

A car without compression will sound like it's "free wheeling" when you
try to start it. It won't have the "groan groan groan" sound that is normal.

 

No, we have not actually seen the injector spray gas into the throttle.
The guy that was looking at it seems to think there is too much gas
getting to the engine and flooding it out. The oil has a gas smell to
it.

Also, the timing belt was changed when we were trying to figure out the
problem. The car has 130,000 miles and we did it just for maintenance.

The mechanic that has it now has done all the tests on it and he says that
everything checks out.

 

So? Changing a timing belt is no guarantee that it was done properly.
It is no guarantee that it was tensioned properly and didn't snap 2K miles
later.

Then your car runs. Congradulations.
If it doesn't, then clearly some test wasn't done.

Have you pulled a spark plug and verified that the ignition system generates
enough spark to jump 1/2"? Have you checked the timing?

Have you measured the fuel system pressure? What was the pressure?
Does the computer have any codes to report? Does the computer report that
everything is OK?

Was a compression test done? What were the compression results for each
cylinder?

If you using a mechanic, ask him to run the troubleshooting flowchart in the
honda service manual. If he hasn't a service manual, get your car to a
competant mechanic!

 

The mechanics have run all tests and it is not throwing any codes. There
si compressing in all cylinders. The car has everything it needs to start
(fuel, spark, air, etc.), but still will not start.

Does anyone know if Honda's run "dead on" when it comes to timing? That
is the only thing we can think of. The first mechanic said it was off by
4 teeth, so he fixed it so it was "dead on".

 

How did it get off by 4 teeth? What is to prevent that from occuring
again? Has another mechanic rechecked it?

If it's not throwing any codes then it is something that is open
loop, such as a bad ignition coil. Does it really have spark? You've
actually pulled a plug wire and seen that it'll jump 1/4" to ground while
the car is being cranked?

Is the exhaust clear? Gases blowing out the tailpipe?

Fuel pressure? Injectors grounded and receiving a signal (put on an
osciloscope)?

You might have a bad computer. A honda mechanic can try a replacement
without having to charge you if it didn't need to be replaced.

 

As far as the timing, I don't have any idea how it would have gotten off 4
teeth.

I am just going by what the mechanics are telling us - they said they have
checked everything that a car would need to start and everything checks
out. They are going to look at the ignition switch and I guess we can
have them look at the ignition coil.

The dealer cannot get us in for another 2 weeks, so we are just trying to
think of things for the current mechanic to check.

 

GET IT THE HELL AWAY FROM THAT MECHANIC!!!
Call a tow truck, and have it taken to any other service shop.

A first year mechanic would have known if the ignition switch was bad
within five minutes! All you need is a voltmeter.

"Have a look at the ignition coil???" A 17 year old mechanic who only
knows how to change the spark plugs would know to take an ignition
wire off a spark plug, hold it 1/4-1/2" from a ground and have somebody
crank the ignition to see if the ignition is working.

You're being taken for a ride.

 

Try here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#stalling

 

My husband just got off the phone with the mechanic - he did check the
ingnition switch as well as the coil. They checked it before and after
they changed the distributor and they both check out fine.

 

----------------------------

I hope it's not politically incorrect to point out something that's
written in the Owner's manual . . . The manual says that a flooded Honda
can be started by holding the pedal to the floor and cranking it, for up
to 15 seconds at a time.. It's got too much gas . . now hold the pedal
to the floor and give it air. A flooded Honda sounds like there's no
compression at all. It just spins fairly fast.

'Curly'

 

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I doubt that car has been flooded for weeks.

Also: fuel injected cars don't get flooded, can't get flooded.

 

They can.

Injectors leak.

 

My 94 Civic (MT) has fuel injection. The manual (p101, step 6) says, "If
the engine still does not start, press the accelerator pedal all the way
down and hold it there while starting in order to clear flooding."

 

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Amusing, obviously a holdover from carburetted days where hitting gas pedal
too much would squirt too much gas via the accelerator pump into the intake
manifold. The solution was to crank the engine with the throttle valve
wide open to get some air into the intake manifold.

On fuel injected cars, there's no fuel in an intake manifold. The air manifold
can't get flooded.

The fuel is injected directly into the area just above the intake valve. It's
cleared completely every time the intake valve opens and the fuel/air mixture is
drawn into the cylinder.

 

Is there any way the timing could be the problem? The first mechanic said
it was off and set it "dead on". Is it possible the timing was correct
and that is why it will not start now?

 

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Timing can be way off before it won't start. It'll do thinks like backfire
or "almost catch". The range of adjustment is about 25 degrees, anywhere
within 25 degrees it should start. Easy enough to test with a timing
light.

First things first: does it even have ignition (spark?)
then you can check the timing.

Is there fuel pressure?
is fuel getting to the injector rail?
is there a signal going to the injectors?
Is the injector rail connected properly and grounded?
If there's fuel and the car isn't starting, raw gas should be going
out the tail pipe (and destroying the catalytic convertor)

Is the exhaust free flowing, not pluged?

Is there compression?

Any competant mechanic should have checked all of the above in the first
hour.

 

If you attempt to start a cold car but fail to let it crank long enough to
allow it to start, then do the same thing several times in a row, this can
flood the engine. some people actually manage to do this, believe it or
not.

Also, injectors do leak, especially when new and not fully bedded in. If
you get a couple that dribble into the combustion chamber overnight, you
can flood those cylinders enough to make the car fail to start, or to start
hard.

 

He said the car has everything it should to start - meaning all the tests
came out fine.

I believe that he is a competant mechanic ... he has checked everything
that a car needs to start, however, it still does not start.