2004 Honda Civic Hybrid: poor gas mileage

There is a lot of computing going on. The CVT transmission alone has a
computer controlling the ratios. The D/S/L positions on the console are an
input to the transmission as to suggested ratios.

The IMA electric motor is a marvel of development, but it is simple in
operation. The battery charger is complicated in concept, but it's hard to
say how reliable any of these pieces are going to be.

I'm less worried about the IMA because it is "optional". I don't need for
it or the battery pack to function in order for me to drive. I do need the
CVT to operate. I do need the VTEC controller. I do need the dual-spark
computer and the fuel injection ECM. I rely on the air bag controller, and
the ABS, and the ... I must have left out a few.

My last three or four vehicles have been beyond my ability to repair, and
I've done quite a bit of repairs on various internal combustion vehicles.
When my daughter needed a valve job on a 67 Mustang, I was overjoyed at how
uncluttered that straight six was under the hood.

 

My mileage didn't drop that I noticed... Maybe we always have oxygenated
fuel in California. I was just looking at my Service Manual on the Hybrid,
and there are so many codes, and for that matter, so many different
computers and connections to read codes from, that another dealer may well
be the best answer.

I can exceed the EPA rating on the highway, and stay within 5% of the
city mark. I have a 2003 Civic Hybrid.

On the other hand, by spec, the 2004 Prius is bigger, faster, and gets
better mileage.

 

Yes.

 

To address Randolph and Stephen...

My problem with the tests are their methods... I have no idea what
conditions they will test the car under and how the tester will drive
the car. Yes, I could do a ride along, but in the end what is it
really testing?

I would suggest the following:

1) Have a tech drive with me for two hours and repeat my route to work
and home (25 miles each way, half back roads (25 to 35MPH) and half
highway (50 to 65MPH)). Show the tech how I drive (typically very
conservatively) and the conditions I have (what I believe are very
optimal conditions for what the car was designed for).

2) Do a highway test... 100 miles on an interstate (at 60 to 65MPH).
So far I have found that I get terrible mileage at speeds between 60
and 70 MPH... Maybe even drive the distance w/ cruise control on.

3) An extreme test, but very efficient... Attach a sensor to the car
that can stay w/ it while I drive from home to work and back that
could record the actions and status of the car (miles, MPG, MPH, RPMs,
Temperatures (engine and outside), etc)... All this information would
be very valuable to diagnosis a real world driving condition.

-roger

 

True... I discovered that the WA state lemon law does not cover
anything that is not covered under a warranty.

But there is a consumer issue when they advertise a product falsely.
And yes I realize that EPA MPG is not exact, but when you have such a
considerable change or difference, the situation needs to be
addressed.

-roger

 

Chip...

I actually don't use the AC so that isn't a factor. I also always
keep it the Econ button on.

True. The EPA sticker is no guarantee but when you have such a
dramatic difference there is definitly a problem.

-roger

 

True... the oxygenated gas does have an affect... my argument is that
the percentage difference is not expectable.

With my two previous cars (Ford Escort and Honda Accord) I always got
approximately the EPA stated gas mileage (traveling the same routes
I'm using the Hybrid on). I did notice a reduction in the mileage in
the winter, but never to the extent that I'm seeing with the hybrid
(maybe I would see a 2 to 4% difference). I keep very accurate logs
of my mileage so I've always been very aware of the issues.

Yes, it is possible that I'm expecting to much.

-roger

 

City driving, I get about 33-35 on short trips. More stop than go.

My idea of backroads, 40-60mph, a few curves, maybe an occasional car.
If I'm free to do around 60, I get 46-48mpg. If I get "stuck" behind
someone doing 50-55, I get over 50mpg.

Between 60-65mph, I get over 50mpg. I have seen over 60mpg on a stretch of
10 miles at 50-55mph.

 

Here is an updated status (as of 2/11/04).

I spoke w/ the dealership service manager to go over my issues. The
issues I listed were:

1) the mysterious 5K and 10K break in periods... nothing was every
documented indicating there is a break in period and they changed
their story (originally they stated it would take only 5K miles to
break in, then after 5K miles it changed to 10K miles).

2) The response from the tech rep... Two different tech reps told me
that there was "absolutely nothing they could do"... Simply from a
customer service stand point that is a major no no...

3) The tech rep indicated that they would NOT do a mileage check
because I had not reached 10K miles yet. Yet in the morning the same
tech indicated that they would do the mileage check (drive for 15 to
30 minutes).

4) When I picked up the car there was only 2 new miles on the car... I
had also taken the car in for a mysterious rattle that was coming from
the dash. The repair order indicated they fixed it and gave it a
complete road test.


The manager agreed w/ all my points, but wanted to research the
mileage issue further. He indicated he would contact Honda of
America's Tech center to see if there have been any issues w/ Hybrids
that their tech center is not aware of. He also indicated he wanted
to schedule a drive test, but would not elaborate on what that test
was until he talked w/ the tech center.


Additional notes for everyone... I have always had cars that meet the
EPA rating for MPG (ford escort and Honda accord). I am not a lead
foot driver or aggressive. I drive 50 miles each day (25 on back
roads (at 25 to 35MPH) and 25 on Highways (50 to 65MPH)). I have
never experienced a significant change in gas mileage from summer
fuels to winter fuels (maybe a 2 to 4 % difference). And I have
always kept very accurate logs of my driving and fueling information.

-roger

 

Chip,

honda technical will tell you to expect 10 mpg drop with a/c on auto.
maybe they have a problem with the cylinder idling system, which is
vtec in reverse.
have them watch the data stream and look at short and long term
fuel trim. also note the LAF sensor readings.
i guess the real problem is this question can't really be answered
online!
Chip

 

Here's an article on the 2004 Prius and it's fuel consumption during extreme winter driving.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/jamesbay.htm

Pars

 

the engine is straightforward. the IMA is complicated. I've seen no
problems with them though, and we have a lot of them out there.
Chip

 

My 2003 Civic Hybrid has been back to the dealer twice. My SRS light came
on at about 4,000 miles, and the 10,000 mile service. At each visit, I
asked them to check for a rattle in the windshield pillars. Both times
they said they took it for a ride on rough roads, and couldn't hear a
rattle. It only rattles at certain temperatures, not cold, but definitely
not warm.

I have determined that I can slap the windshield pillars with my hand and
get a noise that is the rattle, just a little different because of my hand
being there. The right side pillar sounds like it is coming from either
the dash or the glove compartment, but a passenger can make the noise go
away by touching the pillar.

At the 20,000 mile service, coming up soon, I will insist on the rattles
being fixed. Third try's a charm.

 

10mpg? You sure you don't mean 10%? I see a 1-2mpg dropoff with A/C.
During a particularly hot spell, it seemed to drop more, but not 10mpg.

The cylinder idling system wouldn't cause a loss of mileage that would be
noticeable. That has to be less than 1 mpg. The feature is to allow
better battery regeneration on coasting.

I notice there is a whole lot of data available, including reading data
during a test drive. That might not be a popular option, especially if it
requires two techs to go out.

The big deal here is the change in this driver's mileage. I have no
problem at all believing that some drivers will get poor mileage with a
Civic Hybrid, especially the stick. But this is a CVT, and it was getting
better mileage.

 

I thought about this as I was driving in commute traffic today. A trip to
visit my daughter, 45 miles, 52 minutes, 52.4mpg.

If a cylinder idling malfunction resulted in having a three cylinder 900cc
engine, the loss of power and efficiency might result in a dramtic decrease
in power and fuel economy, but the vibration should be noticeable.

 

Clarence,

I had the exact same thing occur (passenger side A frame pillar).
They tried to fix it at 3000 miles. It went away for about a week
then came back. They have fixed it again at 5500 miles and so far it
has worked (3 days and counting).

Definitly have them look at it.

-roger

 

Roger,

Good for you finally talking to someone who can say yes to you (instead of
all the people who are only allowed to say no).

Make it clear to the manager that you're not going to lie down about this.
Tell them you're prepared to go to American Honda and the media if they
don't help you.

Alex

 

I dont think so, I think it's six months out of the year even in LA

 

My understanding is that California RFG Phase 2 gasoline, which was
introduced in 1996, requires oxygenate (typically MTBE or ethanol)
year-round. This page, for example, does not indicate that the oxygenate
is seasonal, like it does for other formulations:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/types_of_gasoline.html