2008 Honda Civic Ex Maintenance Schedule

Amen.

Well said...excellently put.

I sure would enjoy reading more about it, please.

Peace,
Polfus

 

Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the Maintenance
Minder?

Think about it.

If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off.

That means, therefore, that all it is is a simple computer that remembers
the milage when it was reset.

That's it.

And the manual says quite clearly, "If the message "Service" does not appear
more than 12 months after the display is reset, change the engine oil every
year."

What if I then drive 35,000 miles in one year?

What then, smart-ass...don't change the oil because the Maintenance Minder
computer says no need?

Polfus

 

Nice Honda-related content.

 

I think the most detailed and most reputable description of
the MM on the net is at
http://www.honda.ca/HondaCA2006/YourHonda/HondaService . On
the left highlight "Honda Service," click on "Maintenance
Calculator," choose year and model, then click on "Complete
Maintenance Schedule." The following appears there:

"The maintenance requirements for your [Honda vehicle] are
determined by an internal algorithm, which considers the
engine starting temperature, driving distance and engine
RPM. The onboard computer also judges your driving
conditions and habits, and then calculates the remaining
engine oil life, displaying it as a percentage."

More links follow.

From general reading, I doubt it is a majority of new
vehicles that have this right now. I do see internet
discussions on the Chevy Ventura supporting what Seth
posted. This Chevy's MM seems similar to the newer Hondas'.
I googled {"maintenance minder" Chevy} to find this. Pardon
if I am stating the obvious, but often the internet is worth
googling first. Admittedly, though, sometimes information is
so arcane that a much more intensive search is needed. That
description above is not all over the internet, for one. I
do not remember how I found it a few years ago, but it is
not in the top ten hits using a few keywords, for example.

A lot of folks have raised concerns about the MM like those
posted in this thread. The ones that come up a lot on the
net, and the best responses I see to them, follow.

1.
Does the MM account for severe duty (especially with regard
to oil life)?
For this, many anecdotal reports on the web reference a
Honda Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) from 2005 on this. It
is titled "Taking the Mystery Out of the Maintenance Minder
System," TSB #09012005, NHTSA #10018482. It is reproduced at
forums like:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=583156. It
says, "The system counts down oil life based on engine
operating conditions (both normal and severe). If the engine
runs at higher temperatures and rpm, or at low temperatures
during short trips, the oil life will deplete faster than an
engine running under more normal conditions." The
description at the Canada site at the top seems to back this
up. Also, here is a post where someone reports that he
tested the oil quality and compared it to the MM's
recommendations for changing the oil: "[The Maintenance
Minder] is pretty accurate as I have done used oil analysis
and the life expectancy shown on the reports coincides with
what our oil life monitor tells us." See
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums//showthread.php?t=15095


2.
Does the MM take driving in dusty conditions into account?
What about driving for a long time while not meeting the
MM's criteria for all the operating conditions listed at the
Canada site above?
The MM does not take account of dusty air filters or any
other system vulnerable to dust. Nor does it factor in the
actual time in days, months, or years that, say, oil or
whatever fluid is in the car. This is covered in the owner's
manual in the MM sections. The owner must monitor time (in
days, months, or years) on his/her own. As Polfus noted, the
rule is 'Change the oil per the MM or once a year, whichever
comes first,' is the actual rule. Engine oil evidently is
not all that vulnerable to dust from dusty roads. I do buy
this at present. Some common sense is still appropriate.
E.g. if someone adds a cup of dirt via the engine oil fill
hole, then I recommend an oil change.

3.
Does the MM distinguish between the use of synthetic oil and
non-synth. oil?
No, but then Honda has always specified the same intervals
regardless of which type of oil one uses.

4.
How do I know the MM was reset after a dealer (or anyone)
does an oil change?
If the MM does not read "Oil Life 100%" right after you pull
out of the shop, then the shop failed to reset it. The
Owner's Manual has instructions for resetting in its
maintenance minder section. Should take just a few minutes
to get through the instructions and reset the MM. I gather
this resetting of the MM is possible for any system the MM
monitors.

5.
A good "official Honda" site that gives what the codes mean
and also exactly what systems the MM minds:
http://www.imakenews.com/londonhonda/e_article000875876.cfm?x=b11,0,w
Mostly this is just an excerpt from an owner's manual.

This concept does not apply to either older cars without an
MM or new ones with an MM. As others have noted, dealers are
not a part of Honda corporation. Dealer service centers are
in the business of selling services and new parts, often
whether your car needs them or not.

For maintenance, follow the owner's manual and MM. If any
shop tells you to do something otherwise, you can post here
or at other Honda fora and get opinions. Generally the best
decision will come out of such discussions, based on much
real life experience and dissection by the ultimate
marketplace of ideas, the net.

 

Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve
the owner of responsibility when it comes to maintenance.

The MM computer does take into account distance driven.

Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts.
The owner has to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms.

My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by
reducing unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes.
See post to Avalon for some elaboration.

These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora.
Like all new technology, it's going to take a while for the
MM to be accepted. Or it may be rejected. I'd say the jury's
out. If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least
oil changes, with the caveat that I'd like more input on why
there is no distinction made between synthetic and
non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance
schedules and the new MM.

 

That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the Maintenance
Minder's actual schedule are valid.

You know...all I need would be for Honda to just simply gimme a general
recommendation or two regarding the engine oil.

It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every 5,000
miles or 7,000 miles or whatever.

Because for Honda to dismiss the thing's worth with "...change the engine
oil every year" must still be a recommendation that they are comfortable
with.

Because they are saying that if you don't use the MM, then change the oil
every year.

That amazes me to no end...what the hell is the point of being so critical
with the MM when Honda basically says their car will bne fine if you just
change the oil once a year.

Do you follow what I'm saying?

I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; i.e.
"..when did I last get reset?"

No doubt...and its good to have on there regardless.

Agreed.

I also believe its because a whole mess of folks can't remember when they
last changed their oil, so its a reminder.

Just that simple, IMHO.

Well said. I believe it will remain in one form or another.

I also believe the main thing is that folks like me and the Avalon fella is
that we cannot accept a car company telling us "just shut the hell up and do
what the computer says".

If the computer fails, like H.A.L., then we need back up and info on how to
fix or maintain the dang thing.

So all Honda has to do is explain it more with backup info for their general
plan for oil changes and filter changes in case Ye Olde MM fails...if they
did that, I don't think we'd be having this conversation right now.

Well..you want my guess? Here goes in case you said yes:

I think its because-

1) They don't use an actual sensor to "taste" the oil..there's no chemical
analysis machine in the car anywhere. So they have no way of knowing exactly
what the state of the oil and filter actually are. And the MM sure as heck
doesn't do anything other than remember last reset and supposedly factors
like starts and acceleration, etc...which I really have a hard time
believing is that effective if at all.

2) So, since they don't use any such sensor to test the oil, there needs to
be no distinction between the two types of oils.

3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that point that we should
follow the new recommendations of the synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e. Mobil
1's guidelines.

4) Since we gotta use the new guidelines, there's no need for anything other
than Honda's recommendation with regular oil.

5) Possibly there is some extreme conspiracy whereas there's so much money
to be made on oil, that no one wants us to know that synthetic oil is
better. It seems that every one that offers a synthetic oil also offers a
regular. Why should a company cut its main profit off by spilling the beans
completely?

6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and refer back to #5.


Peace,
Polfus

 

That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the Maintenance
Minder's actual schedule are valid.[/QUOTE]

But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual,
asking them here is not valid.

 

I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; i.e.
"..when did I last get reset?"[/QUOTE]

You have no idea what weighting any indicator is given. The computer
takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above a certain
point, etc.

You "believe". Ain't that nice.

 

But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it.

Cause oil does break down from just sitting there.

No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, then
change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age.

No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing
sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style of
driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in.

Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed.

More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have they
affected the oil since I was last reset.

Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is
neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change
the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%.

 

Well help me then..what is their current thinking?

??

They are saying that if it doesn't go off its not 'cause of failure to the
system, but because the car hasn't been driven enough to make it
activate..i.e. enough miles driven to warrant oil change?

If thats what you're saying, then I understand...thank you.

If thats not what you'r saying, then we'll keep trying.

And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't believe
it did.

So you're saying that Honda is saying that "..don't worry..the MM *WILL*
work and kick in, but if you don't see the might go off, then you must not
be driving a lot so just change once a year".

Thats it?

Apparently...I believe I see what you mean about this, and I may have been
looking at it wrong about the once a year thing, if you're saying what I
think you're saying.

Okay....whats your take on the accuracy of the MM in general?

Yeah...I did read my manual

Peace,
Polfus

 

You have no idea what weighting any indicator is given.
Agreed.

The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above
a certain
point, etc.[/QUOTE]

I understand that, yet remember that its simply an algorhythm that may
increase or decrease the interval slightly is all.

And ...the bottom line is the *actual degredation of the engine oil*, and
there is nothing in a Honda Accord that tests the actual motor oil.

Therefore, the motor oil itself is the main factor...regardless of the
number of cold starts, RPMs above a certain point, etc...

That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the
chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer thingy,
etc., of each and every oil, which can be chosen by the driver in the dash
console, and then having a sensor in the engine that could take a sample of
the oil and test it right there inside the car.

But that obviously ain't happening, so if the MM tells me I can go longer on
my current oil before replacing, then how does it know if my oil is good
enough to go longer? What if its already in a state of breakdown and full of
carbon? How does it know if I changed all the pistons in my engine and now
need a new "coating/break-in" period? It doesn't. Hasn't a clue in this
world what to say about all that. Its just a simple little computer that
remembers when you last changed the oil for you in case you forget.

And if the computer tells me that I need to change my oil, but I know that I
can look at the Mobil 1 and see that it is still golden colored on the
dipstick, then who's right, especially if the oil manufactuurer states that
the interval is longer, and when Honda agrees to follow the synthetic
manufacturer's recommendations? The MM still The King?

Listen, fruitcake...I "believe" your attempts at sarcasm are embryonic at
best, so save it for your own toilet and do us both a favor.

I like the MM...you need to understand that. I wish Honda gave more
info....in case I, as an adult owner of a vehicle that I paid cash for, want
to do whatever I want with my own car.

Polfus

 

But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual,
asking them here is not valid.[/QUOTE]

No, they most certainly are not answered explicitly in the owner's manual.

But you tell me specifically where it answers these two simple questions..I
have my manual in hand and await your scary knowledge:

1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at?
2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change actually
due?

Tell me where this is in the manual, for starters, and I'll send you a case
of Coors.

Otherwise you can kiss my lilly white (_l_).

Polfus

 

Ditto what Seth said, except I think you may need a stronger
foundation in the engineering here to reason your way
through this, with all due respect. Based on my experience,
I figure automotive engineers know that, in fact, oil
temperature, number of starts, and the other things cited
earlier correlate well with how quickly the oil breaks down.
These engineering and business types are mostly reasonable
people, ya know. They did not just make up that oil
breakdown depends largely on all the aforementioned
conditions.

I should add I base some of my faith on a Consumer Reports
article that studied taxicabs in NYC and especially oil
quality, so as to give counsel on when to change oil. IIRC,
even with the severe duty of cabs, CR found changing the oil
every 7000 miles or so should be fine. Google for the whole
article.

If this were true, then the MM really would not serve a
purpose.

I think it's taking miles driven under X, Y, and Z
conditions and putting this into an algorithm.

Shucks, Polfus, maybe Honda should print the local city bus
schedule in each owner's manual as well. This would be the
ultimate backup.

The point is there are limits. Tradeoffs. Engineers and the
business managers weigh tradeoffs. If you can't list a dozen
potential tradeoffs for the MM system right now, even if
you're just a beginner with cars, then you're not seeing the
whole picture. For now, Honda figures the MM design is an
asset to the business.

For all I know some country somewhere also is looking to
come down on auto manufacturers for all that used engine
oil, radiator coolant, etc. being dumped into the
environment. Getting people who drive their cars under
normal conditions to discard the "change the oil every 3k
miles" is not going to be easy. But if it's legislated by
some country or another... whence the MM.

Do you know why they do not put an engine oil chemistry
monitor on every Honda automobile?

Where does Honda say this? I just checked, at random, a 2002
Civic owner's manual. It says follow the same maintenance
schedule as one would for non-synth oil.

I agree, and I do not say this casually. It's what's behind
the counsel here to never trust a dealership when it comes
to fixing and maintaining one's car.

 

That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive so
little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it anyhow.

Yes, that's what I was saying.

I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say.

As I understand it, yes.

I think we're on the same page.

Have it in my wife's '07 Odyssey. Seems to indicate a change at what I
perceive to be a reasonable amount of mileage. Not being an automotive
engineer, I'm not 100% certain it is correct, but I have faith in the
engineers who know more than I.

I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my
wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage
gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till
flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and my
car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong.

 

Hey no worries....

I just wanna talk Hondas so I can learn whatever it is I need to.

Oh sure...I agree and know this. I also said I am glad to have the MM...I
just wish Honda woulda given a general timelime is all.

More so I can know how much to set aside when a big service job is coming
up..know what I mean? Stuff that I can't do myself.

Well...at least the engineering types are

Agreed. Though some degree of it may be marketing, you may admit.

Read it already...here's another one, some videos . Check out the Las Vegas
one:

"Mobil 1 Extended Performance Field Testing"

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Videos/TV.aspx

LOL! That was a good one.

Agreed.

And a dozen tradeoffs?

Hmm...thats kinda hard actually.

1) Potential decreased needless oil changes; 2) visual reminder system to
owner to maintain vehicle; 3) less global impact with this reduced oil
consumption on the Earth's natural resources; 4) allowing an owner to be
notified if they need oil changes sooner than normal due to driving
conditions experienced and computed by the MM; 5) improved protection of the
car's internal parts thereby potentially allowing the car to last longer
with fewer oil-related break-downs; 6) increased protection for the
driver/occupants because of the MM system notifying owner of service needs
which may prove fatal if not serviced as recommended; 7) Less global waste
from oil pollution with decreased oil changes and the need to safely dispose
of the left-over oil/filter; 8) Decreasing unnecessary costs related to
sneaky mechanics saying you need an oil change, for example, when you in
fact do not, and the car verifies this in the MM; 9) ...

Well..thats all I can get for now...go ahead and gimme 4 more, would ya?

Agreed...well said too.

Cost? Beats me...tell me please.

Dude..my bad. Its the same..Honda says in the 2008 as well to do what it
says in the information display, even when using synthetic.

Problem is we gotta trust 'em some...scary to know whats the truth, so thats
another reason why I would like all the info I could get on my car,
especially on things like changing oil/filter and some kind of guideline
other that "trust the computer and shut up".

Peace,
Polfus

 

at what mileage interval do you refill with gas? or do you watch the
gauge and fill when empty? because that's all the maint minder is - a
gauge.

do you notice if you forget to fill with gas? because the gauge will
show "empty" if you don't re-set.

bottom line - you're just humping virtually every post in sight,
presumably because you're bored. have your parents grounded you for
something?

and you post unspeakable crap. "osmolarity", "chemical structure" and
spectrometry for example, when you haven't the slightest idea what those
things are.

the gauge uses a formula built up over time. if the input [time, rpms,
throttle, temp, etc.] are measured, and correlated to output by honda's
engineers, the output can be measured to a very high degree of accuracy.
not "trusting" it and continuing to bleat about mileage schedules is
like not trusting the engine computer to inject the right amount of gas
- an utterly ridiculous concept. as for synthetics, as per the
algorithm, input is known. accumulated combustion product buildup rate,
that this algorithm models, will be the same regardless of oil. can
synthetics run longer? sure. but the engineering "safe" solution is to
go on the level of combustion product accumulation, not rely on variance
in oil formulation.

now, you go ahead and hump this post polfus. maybe even throw in a few
naughty cuss words. then go to bed and let your mommy read you a story
about the big bad oil bears and how they'll eat your [daddy's] car if
you don't change the oil every 3k miles.

 

No...I mean do you know what Honda's or the motor oil dudes say about
changing oil...the interval, that is?

I wonder....I don't believe that needs changing every year, even if sitting
around undriven.

Well...I do too, or else I wouldn't have spent my cash on an Accord!

That's awesome.....I was just mentioning that the 200k mark is a big one,
and not really the norm. You have definately gotten your money's worth with
that '01 Accord. How long you predict it shall last..mileage wise?

Peace,
Polfus

 

Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even conventional
motor oil is 3 years.

So that brings us back to what I was saying to begin with...

Peace,
Polfus

 

No answer, I see.

You're banter just as re-inforces that this info is most definately NOT
spelled out clearly in the Owner's Manual, which you accused someone of
being stupid because they asked about it.

Good point...but I'm just telling you what the mighty Owner's Manual states.

You *are* Frank Burns.

You say that with such...gusto...its kinda sweet, really.

You just can't see the point no matter what you do...

Duh..and you need chemical analysis to do so...whats wrong with gas
chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example?

Goe fugg yerselv.

Seriously.

Polfus

 

No, they most certainly are not answered explicitly in the owner's manual.

But you tell me specifically where it answers these two simple questions..I
have my manual in hand and await your scary knowledge:

1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at?[/QUOTE]

When the MM tells you to or a year, whichever comes first.

Gee, you mean it's up to the DRIVER to KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it,
including watching the dash and seeing that the MM is reset?

What will we DO? Honda isn't SPOON-FEEDING US ENOUGH. They're not
WIPING OUR NOSES ENOUGH.