88 civic starter problem?

hey folks... have had an 88 civic DX 4 door manual transmission for about a
year now, it has treated me well for the most part (apart from an
aggravating hot start issue that switching out the main relay did NOT fix,
much to my surprise).

anyway, 2 days ago it started turning over very slowly when i went to try
starting it, makign me think the battery was starting to go (no idea how
long the battery's been in the car, i haven't switched it since i got it).
yesterday i took it to a batter shop, he checked teh battery and told me it
looked like it was bad, so pulled it out and put a new one in. when i went
to start the car immediately, it still turned overy very slowly as though
the battery was almost done, though it did spark and start. so it seems
perhaps i have a bad starter as well. just to see, we also did a volt read
on the battery, and while the car was running it only read 12 V... so it
appears i might have a problem with the alternator as well. something seems
odd to me, that all 3 would go on the same day, after a year of not having a
problem with any of them. (unless the alternator's been just barely working
enough to keep me going? i don't know)...

anyway, i'm a college student and dont have much money to be paying for work
done, so i'm hoping i can replace the starter myself... but my Haynes manual
contains almost no information at all on locating the starter or what the
starter even looks like. i looked at an online manual from honda.co.uk,
which had a vague diagram but was still hard to decipher exactly what the
starter was.

any tips? is replacing a starter on this model something easily done by
someone who sort of knows his way around vehicle repair, in the most basic
of ways? can anyone point me to any good resources that will outline the
process clearly and somewhat basically? should i just suck it up and have
the shop do the work and eat mr noodles this month?

thanks in advance.... and if anyone has any ideas about the hot start
problem feel free to let me know too. (same symptoms as many have described,
turns over but won't spark immediately after running unless you let it sit
10-20 minutes, then starts fine, replacing the main relay did nothing to
address the problem)

peace...jer

 

www.autozone.com has free repair guides specific to the 88 Civic.
They're better than Haynes and often duplicate the factory manual.

Follow the pointers to the free repair guides, put in your Civic's
specifics, then click on in order:
Engine & Engine Overhaul
Engine Electrical
Starter

Photos, diagrams, and steps appear at this site.

Meanwhile, do you know about using a push to make this (manual
transmission) car run?

 

Thanks, good site. The guides for the Civic appear to be for '84 - '95,
inclusive, so I don't know how much of the info or diagrams are specific to
a model other than mine, but it gives me a better idea of what i'm dealing
with.

I haven't tried it yet because I haven't needed to, but I'm assuming it
should work...

Thanks again...

Jeremy

 

Try cleaning the distributor cap per the article on my website below.
Your symptoms fit this problem exactly. The article is about my Rover
which uses a Honda design and is in the 'Miscellanea' section.

As to the slow cranking, go to a different battery shop and ask them
to check over the battery condition.

 

Jeremy wrote:

If I were to venture a guess, I would say that your starter is OK, your
battery died from being under-charged all the time, and your alternator
is bad.

Many Hondas have a feature where the alternator output voltage is
dropped at idle under low-load conditions in order to save fuel. I know
they did this as far back as '94, not sure if they did it in '88. On my
'94 Civic you can defeat this voltage reduction by stepping on the
brakes (foot pedal only, hand brake does not count).

Try measuring the voltage again while stepping on the brakes. Now what
do you read? Then measure the voltage as you slowly increase the engine
RPM from idle to around 3000 RPM (no need to be very accurate, "sounds
like about 3000 RPM" is close enough). If your voltage reading never
reaches 14.5V or if it reaches 14.5V at elevated RPM and then stays
constant as you increase the RPM further, you probably need new brushes
in the alternator. Don't know if they were replaceable in '88. If the
alternator is the original one, you may want to opt to replace it rather
than repair it.

If the voltage increases with RPM, and goes above 15V at elevated RPM,
then the voltage regulator is broken. Again, I don't know if it is
replaceable or if you need to replace the entire alternator.

 

I should add that, when the hot start problem comes up, the fuel pump is NOT
running for the 2 seconds or so that it should when you turn the key; before
or after I replaced the main relay.

I have a brand new battery in there, and left a charger on it overnight, and
it persists in slow cranking... soo... would that indicate it is _not_ a
battery issue?

thanks... jeremy

 

Hmm. I did put a brand new battery put in, and left a charger on it
overnight, and it still cranks slowly. Does that point away from the issue
being related to the battery? The alternator thing does seem odd to me
though, I don't understand how both problems could have come up at the same
time with no prior warnings at all....

I didn't know Honda did that... not sure if mine does or not. I didn't try
the brakes thing, but when I was at the shop, I did raise the engine to
about 2500-3000 ish RPM and the voltage reading didn't change. So perhaps
that is the case and the alternator's fine...? Although I'd be surprised if
they had made the '88 with that feature. I'll check it out (don't have a
voltage reader of my own, like I said, I'm not a mechanic, just some jerk
student who's doing his best not to give his business to the hard-working
mechanics in town. (oh, and save money. ) )...

thanks...jeremy

 

If the pump isn't giving the 2 secs priming run then you have to find
out why. Was the replacement Main Relay a brand new one? If you
picked one up at a breaker's it may be faulty, too.

Did you look at your original at the PCB (board) into which the relay
frames are soldered? A 'dry' joint is fairly easy to spot and the photo
at Mark's site (referenced from the article on mine) shows what that
bad joint looks like. A jeweller's eyeglass can be useful.

Don't throw either Main Relay unit away since the 'dry' joint is just
about the only thing that goes wrong with them and that is mendable.

Well, it seems like it would (thinks 'what did you do with the old battery
if the new one didn't fix the problem?'). I would still suggest that you
get
a second opinion from another shop since the voltage readings you
report all say 12V.

One test that should be done is to read the voltage while the engine
is being cranked. It needs to exceed 9V to be considered serviceable
although my car will start when it is down to 6V and barely pulling
over TDC (compression).

HTH

 

Sounds like a bad solenoid or battery cables. They cause resistance and
the starter runs slowly. Touch them see if they're hot. The solenoid is a
size of a can of Red Bull located on top of the starter on the
transmission-firewall passenger side. The cables are a feet and a half
long. Just to be sure, jump the solenoid's two terminal on its
back. If that doesn't work, then power the starter with a large cable.

If you don't hear that two seconds of fuel pump sound then the main
relay is shot again. Open it up and see if you can spot a dry joint. Fix it then
put some breathing holes on its cover. Generally, the alternator brushes
are replaceable.

Rick

 

On my 1991 Civic, turning on the headlights defeats it.

In other words, starting the car in the morning in summer temperatures
and no loads yields a battery terminal voltage of 12.7 volts. Turn on
the headlights, and it jumps to between 14 and 14.5 volts.

My Chilton's manual does not mention this. Nor do the free Autozone
manuals for my Honda. The only online manual source I found that
discusses this is at the UK site for the 1991 Concerto (same engine as
my 91 Civic, I believe).

The instructions for checking a 1988-1991 CRX alternator are
accessible at http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/CRXManual/index.html .
Select "Full Manual" etc. on the left, then "Electrical" and then
"alternator" to bring up a PDF file.

Like the instructions for the 91 Concerto, these have a series of
steps to take that require a load (headlights, radio, etc.) to be
placed on the electrical system and imply that the voltage should rise
after this load is added.

 

It seems that the '88 Civic has this built in as well, as stepping on the
brakes and raising the RPM to 2500-3000 did engage the alternator. So
there's good the alternator's working (for now).

Jeremy

 

I checked the cables, and the starter is definitely drawing power from the
battery (if not excessive power as it works extra hard to turn over).
Tapping the starter with a hammer while turning the key (obviously done with
a partner! ) works to start the car, and it seems to me that the starter
is simply worn out and needs to be replaced.

Thanks to all for the help! This group is fantastic and has helped me a few
times in the past, and I appreciate your (collective) willingness to help
those in need of it!

Blessings....Jeremy

 

The main relay I installed (March '04) was brand new, so I assumed that
there would be nothing wrong with it, at least that it wouldn't fail this
quickly. Unfortunately, at the time I decided it would be easier to simply
get a whole new one than to try to repair the old one, so I threw the old
one away without opening it up. It was quite a bugger to access and switch,
what seemed like it should be a 30 minute re & re job ended up taking a
couple hours (!) so I haven't been terribly motivated to get back in there
and pull it out again... I will have to pull it out in the near future and
open it up to look for dry joints though. Hopefully that will be the
problem, as I can't think of anything else that would cause the fuel pump to
not prime when the car is warm, unless a faulty fuel pump would somehow
cause this? (If it is the problem, I'm unhappy with Niehoff and/or the parts
store for selling me crap. But life goes on....)

Thanks again for the assistance...

peace....Jeremy

 

For the archives:

I also checked an online subscription auto repair resource called
"AllData" (not available to the public per se but at my local
community college) yesterday. For both the 91 Civic and the 1988
Civic, the steps for checking the alternator's voltage regulator
explicitly include turning on just the headlights with the car
running. The battery terminal voltage is supposed to go up when the
headlight load is applied for both models.

Kinda funny how different the checks are from Autozone to Chilton's to
the UK site's to AllData's. They're usually almost identical. But it's
also cool that AllData recommends a check that some of us formulated
on our own.

Hope you get your car fixed!

 

"Jeremy"

Reach up and tap on it. Usually this will start the car if it's the problem.
Mount it lower next time. About that starter, I've taken the solenoid
and starter apart before on this vehicle. The solenoid is not built to last
compared to the starter. That is why you'll do better to load test the
starter inside the car. The solenoid is cheaper than a starter, so decide
carefully how to spend your college money.

Rick

 

problem.

I'll try this next time the issue arises... thanks

In the end, this is exactly what was done... but since my mechanical
know-how really does not extend beyond re & re (if that! ) I brought it
into the shop again and paid the $45 shop rate plus the solenoid
replacement... under $100 (Canadian) in the end. Not bad...

Thanks for the advice!

Jeremy

 

Thanks Caroline... that's interesting stuff, I'll be sure to remember it
next time my battery fails. For now, all is well again... (aside from the
main relay that I won't get to for a few weeks)... next I get to worry about
the erratic idle problem, but I think I can get most of the info I need on
that from either Haynes, Chilton, or the archives of this group.

peace...Jer