91 Civic Lower at Dr. Side Front...

.... by about two inches. Car has 175k miles on it and engine
seems in great shape and is maintained pretty carefully IMO
by yours truly. The non-levelness is noticeable when
standing 30 feet or so from the car. Bounce test (pushing on
one side than the other of the front bumper) yields about
one or two cycles.

I will take off the front dr. side wheel today and inspect
the suspension spring (for breakage) and damper (for
leakage). I haven't heard clicking when turning, so I don't
think a CV joint is necessarily broken. A few questions as I
troubleshoot this, using my manual, Tegger's site covering
various suspension components' replacement, and the net:

-- If I replace the front dr. side spring and damper, I
really should do the pass. side, too, right?

-- Could someone please rattle off where I can get a new
damper? (I know this is in the archives... ) My recollection
is OEM is not at all critical here, right? I don't want
performance. I want a damper that acts the same as when my
Civic's dampers were new, at a good price. Napa? Autozone?
There is a junkyard not far from whom I got a strut before.

-- Other things I can check to confirm, say, a broken ball
joint or other causes of the non-levelness? I see Tegger's
site's comments on this but the car doesn't have any braking
problems suggestive of a broken ball joint.

I am using
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/advice/index.php/t-6582.html .
Note that my manual indicates there is no torsion bar
adjustment on my 91 Civic.

 

One to two bounces sounds about right. Though it might be a little soft.
On my '88 Civic, I push down on the fender and it just comes back up without
any residual bouncing.

I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can also affect the ride
height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two inches out of them
and then you would surely notice derivability problems.

Struts are usually replaced in pairs to keep your car from bouncing unevenly
side to side which could negatively impact the steering.

The bone yard might be ok for springs but I would avoid any struts there.
I've found that KYB GR-2 struts work pretty well. You can get them from
http://www.tirerack.com. They might be a little stiffer than stock but they
drive pretty good, not too hard and not too soft. It might be a good time
to do all four if you're going to do the front two. I've had a set on my
'88 Civic for years now and they still work fine. The the only spec I could
find in my Helm manual is for the ride height. It's 25.3 in. for the front
and 25.8 in. for the rear as measured from the ground to the top of the
wheel well when parked on a level surface.

Broken ball joints would surely cause a derivability problem but you should
check them, both upper and lower, routinely.

Correct, if I remember correctly, the torsion bars were last seen in the '87
Civic. I don't know if they have ever returned.

Eric

 

One to two bounces sounds about right. Though it might be a little soft.
On my '88 Civic, I push down on the fender and it just comes back up without
any residual bouncing.

I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can also affect the ride
height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two inches out of them
and then you would surely notice derivability problems.

Struts are usually replaced in pairs to keep your car from bouncing unevenly
side to side which could negatively impact the steering.

The bone yard might be ok for springs but I would avoid any struts there.
I've found that KYB GR-2 struts work pretty well. You can get them from
http://www.tirerack.com. They might be a little stiffer than stock but they
drive pretty good, not too hard and not too soft. It might be a good time
to do all four if you're going to do the front two. I've had a set on my
'88 Civic for years now and they still work fine. The the only spec I could
find in my Helm manual is for the ride height. It's 25.3 in. for the front
and 25.8 in. for the rear as measured from the ground to the top of the
wheel well when parked on a level surface.

Broken ball joints would surely cause a derivability problem but you should
check them, both upper and lower, routinely.

Correct, if I remember correctly, the torsion bars were last seen in the '87
Civic. I don't know if they have ever returned.

Eric

 

Eric, thanks for sharing your experience. It helps.

I checked again, and my 91 Civic is indeed much more like
what you describe with your 88 Civic.

Also, the difference in heights is closer to 1 to maybe 1.5
inches.

Yesterday I managed to remove and inspect thoroughly both
front suspension strut (that is, damper and spring)
assemblies. I also looked at the ball joints (upper and
lower) and checked for play in the upper ones. I took
measurements, too, at one point resting the car's weight on
a jack beneath the lower control arms. I couldn't find
anything near an inch off.

I note that, unlike the bolts in the rear lower control
arms, the bolts in the front lower control arms were a
breeze to remove and looked in pretty good repair. I only
sprayed a little PB Blaster on all bolts/nuts and waited ten
minutes. The bushings, at least at the lower control arm,
look okay, but I am not prepared to excuse them yet. I am
still thinking about how the loads transmit and so what
could cause the 1 inch or so drop in height.

I tried switching the strut assemblies but quickly found I'd
have to make more adjustments to them to get them to fit in
the opposite sides. This would require a coil spring
compressor, from what I can tell.

I think I'm going to buy a coil spring compressor today and
check on whether shims exist for the damper assembly.

I am contemplating changing the lower ball joints but see
the nightmare stories about separating them, at least
without the best or near best tool available to do so (which
admittedly might be had for $30 at Autozone) , so I am
hesitating until I have more evidence that one is really,
say, mashed/messed up. Tegger's photos of the car with the
broken front ball joint are inspiring, to say the least.

I think this is going to be a multi-month process, for
budgeting reasons and to enjoy, rather than become
frustrated. Lately I'm thinking that, if anything really
dies on this car, it will be an important suspension
component. This 91 Civic was driven in the northern U.S. for
about half its life and the rear suspension bushings for
sure reflects this. (But I've been over the rear suspension
nightmare already, both hands on at from discussion here at
the newsgroup.)

 

Eric, thanks for sharing your experience. It helps.

I checked again, and my 91 Civic is indeed much more like
what you describe with your 88 Civic.

Also, the difference in heights is closer to 1 to maybe 1.5
inches.

Yesterday I managed to remove and inspect thoroughly both
front suspension strut (that is, damper and spring)
assemblies. I also looked at the ball joints (upper and
lower) and checked for play in the upper ones. I took
measurements, too, at one point resting the car's weight on
a jack beneath the lower control arms. I couldn't find
anything near an inch off.

I note that, unlike the bolts in the rear lower control
arms, the bolts in the front lower control arms were a
breeze to remove and looked in pretty good repair. I only
sprayed a little PB Blaster on all bolts/nuts and waited ten
minutes. The bushings, at least at the lower control arm,
look okay, but I am not prepared to excuse them yet. I am
still thinking about how the loads transmit and so what
could cause the 1 inch or so drop in height.

I tried switching the strut assemblies but quickly found I'd
have to make more adjustments to them to get them to fit in
the opposite sides. This would require a coil spring
compressor, from what I can tell.

I think I'm going to buy a coil spring compressor today and
check on whether shims exist for the damper assembly.

I am contemplating changing the lower ball joints but see
the nightmare stories about separating them, at least
without the best or near best tool available to do so (which
admittedly might be had for $30 at Autozone) , so I am
hesitating until I have more evidence that one is really,
say, mashed/messed up. Tegger's photos of the car with the
broken front ball joint are inspiring, to say the least.

I think this is going to be a multi-month process, for
budgeting reasons and to enjoy, rather than become
frustrated. Lately I'm thinking that, if anything really
dies on this car, it will be an important suspension
component. This 91 Civic was driven in the northern U.S. for
about half its life and the rear suspension bushings for
sure reflects this. (But I've been over the rear suspension
nightmare already, both hands on at from discussion here at
the newsgroup.)

 

I did some more careful measurements today, ground to top of
front wheel wells. The difference in heights from driver's
side to passenger's side is 11/16 inch and holding.

I now think it's the bushings, possibly a bit of spring sag,
and maybe a bit of wear on the ball joints.

 

I did some more careful measurements today, ground to top of
front wheel wells. The difference in heights from driver's
side to passenger's side is 11/16 inch and holding.

I now think it's the bushings, possibly a bit of spring sag,
and maybe a bit of wear on the ball joints.

 

Elle wrote:

[snip]

The front struts are sold separately for the left and right sides. I do not
believe that they can be swapped from side to side. The rear struts are
different. Those are the same part numbers for left and right unlike the
fronts.

The upper ball joint is part of the upper control arm which is about $60.
The lower ball joint is pressed into the steering knuckle (I don't know the
cost for replacement). You should check them for free play before you
decide to go through the hassle and expense of changing them. The upper
ball joint can usually be checked by squeezing it in the vertical axis with
a large pair of ChanneLock pliers. If you can see the joint move up and
down as you squeeze it then it should be replaced. With the lower joint, I
usually check it by jacking up the car, putting it on stands, and grabbing
the tire between the 4 and 5 o'clock positions. Try pulling the tire in and
out and feel for free play. If you do find some, then you'll need to
confirm that it's isolated to the ball joint and not the wheel bearing by
having someone repeat that procedure while you watch the joint.

Eric

 

Elle wrote:

[snip]

The front struts are sold separately for the left and right sides. I do not
believe that they can be swapped from side to side. The rear struts are
different. Those are the same part numbers for left and right unlike the
fronts.

The upper ball joint is part of the upper control arm which is about $60.
The lower ball joint is pressed into the steering knuckle (I don't know the
cost for replacement). You should check them for free play before you
decide to go through the hassle and expense of changing them. The upper
ball joint can usually be checked by squeezing it in the vertical axis with
a large pair of ChanneLock pliers. If you can see the joint move up and
down as you squeeze it then it should be replaced. With the lower joint, I
usually check it by jacking up the car, putting it on stands, and grabbing
the tire between the 4 and 5 o'clock positions. Try pulling the tire in and
out and feel for free play. If you do find some, then you'll need to
confirm that it's isolated to the ball joint and not the wheel bearing by
having someone repeat that procedure while you watch the joint.

Eric

 

If the bushings are not visibly compressed (checked with the car on the
ground) or cracked, then they're probably OK. I still suspect a bad
spring. If you get one from the wrecking yard, you'll need to know the free
length of the stock new spring and bring a tape measure with you to measure
the new springs. http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com lists 4 different part
numbers for the front springs with prices varying from $48.88 ea. to $136.14
ea. I would give them a call and try to find out what the differences are
between the springs as you may be able to use the less expensive units.

By the way, it might be better to rent a spring compressor for a day rather
than purchase it.

Eric

 

If the bushings are not visibly compressed (checked with the car on the
ground) or cracked, then they're probably OK. I still suspect a bad
spring. If you get one from the wrecking yard, you'll need to know the free
length of the stock new spring and bring a tape measure with you to measure
the new springs. http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com lists 4 different part
numbers for the front springs with prices varying from $48.88 ea. to $136.14
ea. I would give them a call and try to find out what the differences are
between the springs as you may be able to use the less expensive units.

By the way, it might be better to rent a spring compressor for a day rather
than purchase it.

Eric

 

It did indeed look that way except I thought I could forego
the brake line clamps for my brief swap (during which I
would do no driving but instead just take measurements) and,
if I could get the damper assembly apart, rotate certain
parts to make the swap work.

But since they're different part nos., I understand your
point.

My Chilton's manual gave checks for the ball joints similar
to yours.

About the springs:
What's odd to me is that both under load and with the strut
assembly removed, the spring lengths were the same.

Uncompressed, the dr. side control arm bushing is cracked. I
think the pass. side one was too. But I didn't take
measurements or inspect how they appeared under load, so
that seems like a good next step.

I found today that Autozone will loan me a spring compressor
that may fit on Honda's tiny coil springs. No charge; just a
refundable deposit.

Thank you. I think I'm on my way to better understanding
what I might need to do at some point soon. I am trying to
avoid nightmares brought on by violation of the "If it ain't
broke, don't fix it" rule. Plus I am ambivalent about
spending too much money on a car this old, much as I want to
take it to at least 250,000 miles.

 

It did indeed look that way except I thought I could forego
the brake line clamps for my brief swap (during which I
would do no driving but instead just take measurements) and,
if I could get the damper assembly apart, rotate certain
parts to make the swap work.

But since they're different part nos., I understand your
point.

My Chilton's manual gave checks for the ball joints similar
to yours.

About the springs:
What's odd to me is that both under load and with the strut
assembly removed, the spring lengths were the same.

Uncompressed, the dr. side control arm bushing is cracked. I
think the pass. side one was too. But I didn't take
measurements or inspect how they appeared under load, so
that seems like a good next step.

I found today that Autozone will loan me a spring compressor
that may fit on Honda's tiny coil springs. No charge; just a
refundable deposit.

Thank you. I think I'm on my way to better understanding
what I might need to do at some point soon. I am trying to
avoid nightmares brought on by violation of the "If it ain't
broke, don't fix it" rule. Plus I am ambivalent about
spending too much money on a car this old, much as I want to
take it to at least 250,000 miles.

 

Elle wrote:

[snip]

By "under load" do you mean with the car jacked up and the strut extended?
You need to compare the free length of the spring when it's uninstalled from
the strut assembly to the free length of new springs.

A worn bushing might give a ½" or so. I replaced both the front and rear
lower control arm bushings as well as the rear upper control arm bushings on
my Civic about a year ago or so. It made the car drive a lot smoother. My
front lower control arm bushings were also cracked.

My Civic is at about 243,000 miles and I'm hoping to drive it to at least
300,000 or so. The paint's not in the greatest shape but that doesn't
affect how it drives.

Eric

 

Elle wrote:

[snip]

By "under load" do you mean with the car jacked up and the strut extended?
You need to compare the free length of the spring when it's uninstalled from
the strut assembly to the free length of new springs.

A worn bushing might give a ½" or so. I replaced both the front and rear
lower control arm bushings as well as the rear upper control arm bushings on
my Civic about a year ago or so. It made the car drive a lot smoother. My
front lower control arm bushings were also cracked.

My Civic is at about 243,000 miles and I'm hoping to drive it to at least
300,000 or so. The paint's not in the greatest shape but that doesn't
affect how it drives.

Eric

 

about her 1991 Civic LX, 175k miles

I took three measurements of the coil spring lengths:
1. Car front supported at customary jacking points (the
frame beneath the front doors) for changing a tire (wheels
off, of course)
2. Car front supported beneath lower control arms (wheels
off)
3. Strut assembly fully removed from car and laid on ground,
side by side.

I understand. As I mentioned, having no spring compressor
yet, I haven't done this. I would also have to go after some
new springs... But I see where you're going.

Where did you have the bushings removed and then pressed
into place?

Finding a shop that will do this for me is a bit of a hurdle
to get over. I think I can deal with separating the lower
ball joints, once I cave and put the money into the right
tool, per Tegger's site. I separated the ball joints in an
auto shop class once and get the basic idea, as well as some
of the precautions to take. Also I see the warnings in the
archives.

I am still tempted to go down to the one junkyard I know
that has a lot of old Civics and see if I can just find a
couple of front control arms in good repair and use them.
The one, new rear control arm I installed (under great
duress, not having very good tools or knowing much about
bolt busting beyond PB Blaster) had only about 5000 miles on
it IIRC and had a bushing(s) that was (were) much better in
appearance than the old one(s).

That's encouraging!

The superior ride you're getting is also incentive. This is
definitely something to consider for a summer project.
That's what this is right now: After looking everything
over, feeling it was safe enough, and seeing the height
difference wasn't as bad as I thought, I can live with it. I
was walking into the parking lot the other day and saw this
glaring tilt for the first time to my Civic and felt it was
time to take a look at what was happening in front.

I bought some Armor All today and sprayed some on the upper
ball joint rubber boots, wiping them down. Without thinking
about it, on my next trip out, I swear I felt smoother
steering, especially on turns. I know that doesn't make
sense, unless the Armor All soaked in and around the boot a
bit and drove out some of the crud there.

I'll have another go at it all come Monday or so.

Thanks again.

 

about her 1991 Civic LX, 175k miles

I took three measurements of the coil spring lengths:
1. Car front supported at customary jacking points (the
frame beneath the front doors) for changing a tire (wheels
off, of course)
2. Car front supported beneath lower control arms (wheels
off)
3. Strut assembly fully removed from car and laid on ground,
side by side.

I understand. As I mentioned, having no spring compressor
yet, I haven't done this. I would also have to go after some
new springs... But I see where you're going.

Where did you have the bushings removed and then pressed
into place?

Finding a shop that will do this for me is a bit of a hurdle
to get over. I think I can deal with separating the lower
ball joints, once I cave and put the money into the right
tool, per Tegger's site. I separated the ball joints in an
auto shop class once and get the basic idea, as well as some
of the precautions to take. Also I see the warnings in the
archives.

I am still tempted to go down to the one junkyard I know
that has a lot of old Civics and see if I can just find a
couple of front control arms in good repair and use them.
The one, new rear control arm I installed (under great
duress, not having very good tools or knowing much about
bolt busting beyond PB Blaster) had only about 5000 miles on
it IIRC and had a bushing(s) that was (were) much better in
appearance than the old one(s).

That's encouraging!

The superior ride you're getting is also incentive. This is
definitely something to consider for a summer project.
That's what this is right now: After looking everything
over, feeling it was safe enough, and seeing the height
difference wasn't as bad as I thought, I can live with it. I
was walking into the parking lot the other day and saw this
glaring tilt for the first time to my Civic and felt it was
time to take a look at what was happening in front.

I bought some Armor All today and sprayed some on the upper
ball joint rubber boots, wiping them down. Without thinking
about it, on my next trip out, I swear I felt smoother
steering, especially on turns. I know that doesn't make
sense, unless the Armor All soaked in and around the boot a
bit and drove out some of the crud there.

I'll have another go at it all come Monday or so.

Thanks again.

 

I took them to the shop I used to work at and they let me use their
hydraulic press. If you have experience using a press, then it's pretty
straight forward, i.e., press the old bushings out and then press the new
bushings in using appropriate press tools such that you're only pressing on
the thin outer sleeve of the bushing and not on the center while keeping the
arm supported such that you're pressing perpendicular to the arm and not off
at some angle. However, any good machine shop or auto shop with a press
should be able to do them for you. Call around for prices and avoid the
cheapo car repair places.

Eric

 

I took them to the shop I used to work at and they let me use their
hydraulic press. If you have experience using a press, then it's pretty
straight forward, i.e., press the old bushings out and then press the new
bushings in using appropriate press tools such that you're only pressing on
the thin outer sleeve of the bushing and not on the center while keeping the
arm supported such that you're pressing perpendicular to the arm and not off
at some angle. However, any good machine shop or auto shop with a press
should be able to do them for you. Call around for prices and avoid the
cheapo car repair places.

Eric

 

Re having old suspension control arm bushings pressed out
and replaced:

Sounds good. I'll start making gentle inquiries.