'93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?

93 Civic CX hatch, Canadian model, 244 000 km (the "clown car" featured
on Tegger's site, FYI).

I've had a broken ball joint and a ruptured Canadian Tire tire in the
past month and a half (I blame a pothole) but the other two problems
have me much more concerned.

Six weeks ago, spontaneous failure to start. Cranked but did little
else. After being towed to a CAA-approved garage, the ignition control
module was found to be faulty and was replaced. Also, oil had leaked up
high around all four plugs (which was blamed for the failure of the
ICM). We had replaced the valve gaskets 2 years prior. A new gasket set
was installed.

Car ran sort of OK for the next four weeks. The subsequent two weeks, we
started having start problems (had to crank it twice or three times) and
the low idle seemed a little sputtery. It also seemed to be a little
sluggish as well. We chocked it up to the car needing a tune-up having
last been done around 2 years ago.

After leaving the car in the lot for the weekend, spontaneous failure to
start returned on Sunday. Something along the lines of
crank-crank-crank-crank-crank - SPUTTER-SPUTTER crank-crank-crank etc. -
different than last time. A gasoline smell came after cranking a few
times. No oil was observed around the plugs. No check engine light.
PGM-FI relay seemed to be clicking as it should, fuel was pumping,
decent spark, etc. The oil was down a bit, but still above the 'fill'
dot on the dipstick.

I got the car towed to my regular mechanic who is now of the opinion
that the engine needs to be replaced. I intend to go to the garage and
have him better convince me of this before I shell out bucks for an
engine replacement, but I have a few questions that are lingering...

1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the
oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine
failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story.
Any opinions?

2.) Any chance that the ECM could be screwy? I can't see it being that
since there's spark and fuel pumping, but can't be sure.

3.) The whole concept of gently-used Japanese motors was new to me when
the mechanic recommended a used Japanese motor as opposed to tearing my
existing one apart. Is it true that they export engines and
transmissions (as well as whole cars) because of their stringent vehicle
inspection policies?

Thanks,
Adam (unhappy clown car owner)

 

IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the
seals should solve the issue.

I doubt it. The ECM is pretty hardy. Unless it was covered in water (car
in a flood), the ECM should last pretty damned near forever.

Yes.

 

Thanks for the advice. Here's another question: does the first
mechanic's hypothesis about the oil leak frying the ICM make sense? I
mean, if the sparl is arcing to the engine block instead of coming out
of the plug, would the igniton system really see any difference?

 

No it wouldn't. But *you* might notice. The engine could misfire badly
enough to cause driveability problems.

 

I'd *love* to know how they determined that. Did they backprobe the blue
wire and check for dropped signals? That's the only real way to tell,
on-the-car.

You don't have a tach, do you? The stock tach is a handy diag tool,
since it gets its power from the igniter's blue wire.

Before you spend lots of dough getting the engine replaced, find a
better mechanic. This is not rocket science and he's no rocket
scientist.

If the Check Engine light comes on for two seconds when the key is first
turned to "II", then goes off, and if the fuel pump runs while the CEL
is on, then your ECM is FINE. Do NOT replace it.

Your symptoms right now point to a possible weak spark, weak enough to
cause a misfire. Your mechanic needs to ascertain that the spark AT THE
PLUGS IN THE ENGINE is a fat and purply-blue. A "spark plug tester" will
not tell anybody if the spark is grounding before the plug gap.

If the cap/wires/rotor/plugs are over 5 years old, or show ANY sign of
arcing, then the spark is probably not making it to the plugs in the
engine, but may be arcing out in the plug tubes. Check for discolored,
burned or sooty spots at the plug wire ends, and on the plug tube walls.

Your symptoms also point to a possible weak coil. The blue-spark check
is a good test for that as well. A weak coil will put out a (yellow or
darker) spark.

If the spark is purply-blue when viewed at a standard plug gap in a dark
area, then the ignition is likely just fine.

A final strong possibility is a flooded engine due to a leaky injector.
If the car sits for long periods, gum can build up in the injector,
sticking it open slightly. The cure is to floor the gas, then hold it
there while you crank. This causes the ECM to shut off the injectors in
order to clear a flooded condition.

If the car eventually starts when you do this, you've got a fuel
condition. If the car starts fine when it's used frequently, then the
leaky injector theory becomes more probable.

If the problem turns out to be leaky injectors. Canadian Tire sells the
Motorvac injector service, which I highly recommend. It's $100 and is
worth doing on any older car. Just make sure you have a high-volume shop
do the work, and make 100% certian that they will plumb in at the fuel
filter, NOT the fuel pump connections.

Good luck.

 

No, it's an automatic unfortunately.

I rode along with the car and was watching over the shoulder of the
mechanic while they tinkered. There was *zero* spark when the initial
check was done. They checked the cap and rotor, then swapped the whole
distributor with another (weak spark) then put the ICM from the other
distributor back into my old assembly (problem "solved").

He's been good to me in the past, but I intend to pay him a visit before
agreeing to something as drastic as an engine swap. I want to be
thoroughly convinced that nothing else will work.

This is what's happening. I can hear the fuel pump run until the CEL
goes off. Agreed that the ECM is most likely not involved.

The cap, rotor and wires were replaced two years ago by the same
mechanic. Probably after-market (which is its own can of worms, I know)

I'll keep this in mind for tomorrow's chat.

If it's conceivable that 30 hours of inactivity can leak enough fuel to
flood the engine, then this could be the problem. I normally use the car
daily.

I did try cranking the car with the gas down as per the FAQ, but still
couldn't get it to change its condition. Prior to Sunday, it was having
trouble starting every day but would get going eventually (would
sometimes take two or three sets of cranks to get going).

If I get a good resolution tomorrow, I'll absolutely consider this.

Thanks for the advice!

 

I doubt it. The car would run like hell, but it shouldn't bother the
ignition system.

 

I see their reasoning, but with a Honda you're much more likely to have
NO spark than a weak spark, from a failing igniter.

An igniter usually works fine all along, then quits outright, usually
while driving.

I'm really thinking a weak coil at this point. I might be wrong, not
having actually been there when they did their work...

Ask them if they checked for shorting into the spark plug tubes.

Make 100% certain the spark is actually good before getting the Motorvac
done.

If your car is used daily, chances are the injectors are fine. Modern
fuels have loads of detergents and do a very good job of keeping
injectors clean.

 

When I pulled the plug wires to check for oil, the tubes looked clean.
The first mechanic did a quite thorough job cleaning out the oil.

I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a
very good reason for my engine woes.

Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 which improved on the low
cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem
- explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi
across the board for an engine of my vintage.

The ignition circuitry does seem to be giving a good spark.

He agreed that just replacing the ICM (which the first mechanic did)
was something sort of odd. He would have opted to replace the whole
assembly for a remanufactured one.

Sigh ...

 

wrote in @q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

Oh. My. Gosh.

You are, not to put too fine a point on it, WAY, WAY LOW.

Wow. And you've only got 244,000km, which is a skimpy 151,000 miles.

While I considered the possibility of low compression as being the cause
of your woes, I did not expect that your compression could be that low
at this mileage.

You bought the car with 106K miles on it, and got a pretty good price.

I'm afraid the previous owner did not take care of the car quite the way
you might have hoped. At this point you should consider either selling
the car or replacing the engine.

A rebuild will likely not be economic. An engine with compression this
low has suffered severe neglect, and it is a guarantee the crankshaft is
scored.

What were your numbers when you passed DriveClean when you transferred
ownership? Do you still have the printout? Did the car start and run OK
when you bought it?

Sorry, Adam. Wish the news was better.

 

OTOH, you have a heck of a doorstop there.

Mike

 

While I considered the possibility of low compression as being the cause

Of course. No one expects a reasonably-well-working D-series engine to
just fall apart like that. We certainly didn't!

We've been religious with our 5000 km oil and filter changes, usually
erring on the side of caution (and never going more than 100 km over).

We never bothered with premium gas since the owner's manual specifies 87
octane.

The previous owner indicated that the car did have an overheat problem
for a time, during which it was not used for long trips. The owner's
brother-in-law "fixed it" at which point they resumed using it both
short haul and good highway drives (i.e. Toronto to Montreal and back),
but I'd say that 75% of the car's use prior to my takeover of it was
strictly city.

March 2006 / August 2004 (when purchased)
40 km/h
HC PPM: 23 / 0
CO%: 0.02 / 0.03
NO PPM: 104 / 128
RPM: 1809 / 2122
Dilution: 14.62 / 14.73

Curb idle:
HC PPM: 15 / 0
CO %: 0 / 0
RPM: 751 / 751
Dilution 13.50 / 14.10

The shop that did both of these certifications (not our regular
mechanic, BTW) is currently under a 4-month DriveClean inspection
suspension, as per the MTO website.

The car ran OK even after purchase, but was sluggish getting up to
speed. The big tune-up done in early 2005 remedied that nicely (plugs,
wires, cap, rotor, PCV valve, rocker gaskets). The only "problem" that
was found during the one-and-only tune-up was that one of the vacuum
hoses had collapsed, which was MacGyvered by cutting out the stressed
portion and clamping the two pieces around a metal stent (since the
mechanic indicated that a new hose would have to come from the dealership)

Ever since that tune-up, the oil consumption has slowly been creeping
upwards, to the point where we needed to top up over a quart between
changes. I don't blame the workmanship.

Considering the money we've put into the drive train and body, our
mechanic is going to install a used JDM for us, most likely a D16Y.
$1200 plus taxes (plus $150 to replace the rotting radiator at the same
time - might as well with the engine out).

Is my understanding correct in that the D16 series doesn't suffer from
the oil-leak-around-the-plug problem?

If you want to update the gory details to the site, feel free ...

Six weeks ago: ICM and rocker gaskets (no spark)
Four weeks ago: Front passenger side tire sidewall failure (covered by
Cdn Tire warranty)
Three weeks ago: Passenger side balljoint separation while driving
(fortunately while driving out of a parking lot)
This week: Catastrophic compression failure - engine and radiator
replacement

Plus our cat needed surgery! Seven thousand big ones in seven weeks...

 

Yep... Anything under 100psi will probably not fire.

JT

 

They don't. Only if neglected or abused!

Overheating? Uh-oh. I wonder if it came to replacing the head gasket.

If the brother-in-law used sandpaper to clean the block face when
replacing the head gasket, you engine's days are numbered. Grit falls
into the bores and chews up the rings extremely hastily.

There is one more possibility for the low compression: A warped head, or
a burned valve. If the valve seats are not dead square to the valves,
they won't seal completely. If the clearances have not been maintained,
the exhaust valve can burn, also leading to leakage.

The test for this involves rotating the engine by hand until the valves
are closed, then blowing shop air into the cylinder through the spark
plug hole. If there is hissing through the throttle body or the exhaust,
a valve is not seating properly.

There is a (remote) chance that soft carbon buildup is propping one of
the valves open, something that can happen to cars that spend much of
their time doing short-hop, low-speed city driving. In that case, an
"Italian tuneup" will usually cure that.

Amazing what a good cat will eat up. Those numbers are very good.

You also just might be paying more attention to oil consumption than you
were before. What you describe is about 3,000 miles per quart of oil.
That's somewhat high, but acceptable for an engine that's not had the
best of care.

Disastrous would be if you wewre having to dump in a quart with every
gas fillup.

JDM is a good idea. However, be prepared for possible glitches, such as
having to drill new holes or fabricate brackets. Non-North American
engines have some stuff in different places.

All the D and B-series are prone to oil leakage if the gaskets are not
changed occasionally. Oil leakage is exacerbated if oil changes are
neglected, which I suspect was the case before you bought the car.

You're nothing if not persistent. I'll put this up soon.

 

Disconnect the PCV system before doing this!

 

If the brother-in-law used sandpaper to clean the block face when

I would estimate this repair at somewhere around 2 years prior to my
purchase of the car, so we're talking 4-5 years. My mechanic doesn't
think that the head gasket is to blame.

We consistently bring (brought, I suppose, is the correct term now)
the car up to 120-130 km/h during highway driving, which for us is at
least once per week (minimum). Good 300-400 km round trips would
happen at least monthly.

Good to know; I'll be sure to ask the mechanic once the car is ready.
Fortunately, I haven't yet done my annual rustproofing, so any new
holes/brackets/etc will get hit when I get the work done. (I use Krown
- no one that I know has had a bad experience with them.)

That's also good to know.

My car should be roadworthy again by Saturday - update to follow!

 

wrote in @w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

That's good.

My thinking about the valves being burned or not seating correctly has to
do with the oil consumption. If your rings were that badly worn as to cause
severely low compression, I'd also expect you to have to add a quart of oil
every gas fillup, and be laying down a smokescreen as you drive.

But since you're reporting 3K/qt, I think there is a possibility your rings
aren't really that bad, and that it's actually the valves that may be the
problem.

If they are, it would be a sight cheaper to have the head remanned rather
than replacing the whole engine. Hence my recommendation to perform the
air-hiss test.

 

yes, but most unlikely it's all of them. more likely the timing belt's
slipped. valve timing affects compression numbers.

nah, can't even get the head off for the price of a jdm motor, let alone
doing any work on the head once it's off. if there's any mechanical
problem, unless you're doing the work yourself, replacement is just too
cheap to be not done.

 

Now that I think about it (hindsight being 20/20) there were a few
other signs that I should probably have looked into...

1) On cold days, after a cold start the idle RPM would surge up and
down a few times before settling down. I thought that my Canadian Tire
remote starter was acting up until normal keyed starts would do the
same thing.

2) I would perceive a change in the idle RPM when idling at a light
and the turn signal was blinking. It sounded like the idle was just a
bit faster when the light was off, and a little slower when it was on.

 

Delay getting the JDM engine ... sigh ... so much for the "local"
supplier. The clown car is still at the garage. Fingers crossed for
tomorrow.

If I didn't trust my mechanic I'd have towed the carcass somewhere
else by now (perhaps the scrapyard) - blasphemous words, I know ...
I'm letting cooler heads deal with things (the wife)