94 Accord AT going bad?

I wonder if any of you, '94 Accord owners have had the Automatic
Transmission going bad and what the symptoms were. I suspect mine is
showing the symptoms but I'm not sure. I hear noticeable whining coming
from under the hood and some additional grounding sound during initial
acceleration, especially when I momentarily lift my foot off the gas
pedal and the car is in "engine brake" condition. The automatic
shifting betwen the gears is also not as smooth as it used to be,
especially in the lower gears. Do these symptoms sound familiar? The
car has been running without any serious trouble in the first 200 K
miles and I had it serviced at every 7,500 miles, with oil changes in
between. It's now past that by about 4 K miles.

If it turns out to be indeed AT problem, I wonder what kind of bill
would I be looking for at an authorized Honda service shop. Do they
normally repair the tranny or they just want to install a new one? I'm
afraid a new one would cost me more than the car is worth.

Thanks,
Rudy

 

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It sounds like somebody has put non-Honda tranny fluid in it. Get it
drained and refilled at least twice, ASAP. Use only Honda Z1, and
nothing else. The 'grounding' noise sounds like a motor mount might be shot.

'Curly'

 

concur with curly. check the motor mounts and change the fluid a couple
of times - a couple of weeks apart.

regarding whining, be sure it's not the timing belt.

 

Man, you (and Jim) are good! I was just checking the AT fluid level and
it was way high! It was about as for above the upper measuring hole as
the lower hole is. About half inch or so. So I'm not sure how much of
the symptoms I mentioned is due to the high fluid level and how much
might be due to wrong AT fluid. Looks like I keep having the
consequences of that one maintenance visit to an independent that has
"Japanese Auto Repair" in its name and tells customers that they employ
several former Honda Service Technicians. Maybe there is a reason why
they no longer work for authorized Honda dealers?! But it's not what
these independents will tell you.

Now the question: how in the hell do I drain that AT fluid and how much
fluid do I need to fill it properly?

Thanks,
Rudy

 

---------------

The drain plug has a 3/8" square hole in it, so you just put a ratchet
handle, or better, swing handle into the hole. When you remove the plug
it will shoot straight at the inside of your front-right tire. Now you
know where it is located. Here's a link to a forum for CR-v.
Instructions are basically the same for you
http://www.hondasuv.com/crv/viewtopic.php?t=65
You should do it twice, maybe a week apart, and the plug should be
removed just seconds after shutting engine off, so you get as much of
the 'floating' particles out.

'Curly'

 

OK, but I still wonder if any of the symptoms I described can also be
caused by too much ATF. What would be the symptoms from that?

Rudy

 

too much atf would mean all kinds of wierdness on the shift and fluid
leakage - assuming you didn't blow any control valves.

when you say there's too much, are you measuring with the motor running?
on a honda, the motor is supposed to be *off*, unlike almost every
other automatic out there...

if there is too much, it's easy to fix - just drain & refill with the
correct amount of honda atf. sounds like you need to do that anyway.

regarding growling, it could be a bearing. but check the motor mounts
first. put it in park, with the brake off, then rock the car back &
forth & see how the mounts behave.

 

-------------------

Read the first two parts of this post, and see how easily an automatic
tranny can sound 'wrecked', but still be easy to fix . .
http://www.hondasuv.com/stg/viewtopic.php?t=9406&

I'm suggesting you procede with caution. It might be something simple.

'Curly'

 

I've read it but I don't think my case is anything like those. I hope
it's all just due to too much of the wrong ATF being used but it may be
a wishful thinking. Given my situation, I could not drain that sucker
without having the car on a lift, so I'll need it done at a Honda
dealer. I'll probably ask for a complete tranny flush before a proper
refill with Honda brand ATF.

Rudy

 

I measured it with the engine off but still warm. That's how the Owner's
Guide specifies it.

It sure looks like I need it.

It's not that kind of growling. It's more like something related to
belts and only when I am accelerating or slowing down with engine brake.
Once I am at a steady speed on a straight stretch of road I cannot hear
it. Gear shifting is also rougher than usual.

Rudy

 

good! not everyone does that...

how many miles since last timing belt change? are you losing coolant?
may be a water pump [or alternator] bearing.

 

I doubt it as I had the timing belt and water pump replaced 25,000 miles
ago. Actually, my last service was a small scheduled maint. service,
like the one performed at 22,500 miles
and it was performed at a Honda service shop. The previous more major
scheduled maintenance visit and later an oil change-only visit was at
that independent shop I mentioned. Those are the guys I suspect screwing
up my previously well running car because they installed a
remanufactured Delco distributor in place of the leaking original one
and they also probably used a non-Honda ATF. After that I immediately
noticed that faint whine from under the hood that seemed to vary with
the RPM but I did not pay much attention to it then. I was more
concerned by the low torque at idle speed, causing me several stalls
during starts while the engine was warm.

The AT related issues however bacame more noticeable in the last couple
weeks, even though I had that last (minor) maintenance service performed
at a Honda dealer since then. I was just checking the work sheet of that
service and it does show a check mark at the item, titled "Check all
fluid levels, condition of fluids and check for leaks, if needed add
transmission fluid, engine coolant,brake fluid, power steering fluid and
windshield washer fluid." So now I wonder if the Honda mechanic just
blindly added more ATF and overfilling it, or he just left in the
original fluid from the independent shop. I am due for another oil
change in about 1,000 miles, which for me means about three weeks, but I
might give them a call about this and see if they feel some
responsibility for the ATF overfill.

Rudy

 

Well, I did visit my Honda dealer and a long time mechanic took me along
with a test drive. He immediately, even before we started rolling, said
that it was a sound he's heard many times before and it was coming from
the torque converter going bad. When I suggested that I would still
prefer to try flushing the trany from the old ATF and fill it with
genuine Honda ATF to see what improvement that would bring, he talked me
out of it as something pretty much useless as that would still not fix
the torque converter. He also thought that the ATF overfill would not
cause that noise. Well, he might be right, but he also might be a bit
influenced by the fact that his shop would make more money with the
replaced torque converter option. It's like going to a surgeon for a
diagnosis and he would naturally lean toward cutting you open, while an
internist would probably try some drugs first. In any case, he said
that the job can wait till my next due oil change, so I have some time
to think about it. To his credit though he did suggest a remanufactured
torque converter that would cost me only around $200 as opposed to a new
Honda part at $850. He also said that the remanufactured TQ would start
out as an OEM part and would have to have certain letters stamped on it
to fit my car model. It cannot be garanteed, however, that they would
have it when I need it and unfortunately those letters are not known
till the mechanic actually removes the existing TQ at which point I am
pretty much committed and might have to choose leaving my car there till
the proper remanufactured TQ becomes available or pay for a much more
expensive new OEM TQ. That's not a choice I like to face, so I think
I'll still try the ATF flush method first somehow.

Rudy

 

ok, if it varies with rpm, not speed, and you have low torque, get that
belt checked quick! it's probably skipped a tooth because it's too
loose. and if you can, try to find out exactly what brand of water pump
they used last time - if they changed it at all. there are some nasty
cheapo aftermarket ones out there whose seals and bearings are grossly
inferior.

the worksheet description is just word padding to justify the cost.

sure, if he checked it at all - which is more likely.

sometimes it's best to vote with your feet and research alternatives
that know what they're doing.

 

afaik, the commonest problem with accord torque converters, and even
then it's not that common from what i can see, is a lack of lockup
clutch. i've never had that problem in a honda myself, but i'd be
surprised if you could hear this problem on driveaway being as the
lockup clutch only engages at higher speeds and during braking.

 

The timing belt and water pump was replaced by a Honda dealer at 180,000
miles, so I don't think that was the problem. I went to that
independent shop later, for the 195,000 ml scheduled maintenance, then
for the following oil change at 198,750 miles. After that I returned to
another Honda dealer's service at 202,500 miles. Now the mileage is
around 204,000.

That's what I figured, too.

I'm running out of options without really knowing a good shop.
Sometimes a new one turns out worse than the old one. That's how it
turned out for me with that independent shop.

Rudy

 

Well, I did drain the ATF last evening and refilled it with 2.5 qt
genuine Honda ATF-Z1. A test drive after it did not show any noticeable
change in that noise I reported earlier. I'll replace the ATF again
next weekend though I'm not having high hopes for an improvement.
Perhaps that mechanic was right after all and my car needs its torque
converter replaced. At least if I was sure that they could find the
right remanufactured converter for it and it would really solve the
problem and not just be part of a process of elimination game till the
whole transmission is replaced.

Rudy

 

try www.cartalk.com and use their mechanic locator. worth a shot.

 

Thanks for that tip, SoCal Mike! Looks like this time I picked the
*right* Honda dealership.

Rudy
(formerly of Huntington Beach)

 

ok. keep us posted with the result - add the data to the pool.