94 accord, fuel pump not running sometimes when starting

I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
won't catch.

When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and the
fuel pump doesn't run. I can sit there for up to five minutes with
the key ON and eventually it runs and I can go mobiling on down the
highway. It has all of the symptoms of the well-documented fscked up
main relay problem...

I've worked through the diagnostics in the service manual: The main
relay testing, the voltage checks at the relay connector, and the
relay internal PCB repair (and then replaced the relay since it didn't
seem it could be anything else even though the original main relay
checked out). I cleaned up the relay connectors with no residue
contact cleaner, and the fuel pump ground, and they all look great.
The basic problem of course is no 12v measured at the fuel pump
connector by the tank when the car is in this no-start state.

Finally it does seem temperature dependent but more so it won't happen
with the car is warm, or ambient is very cold (<60F), but only when
it's just right - like 75)

Where I seem to be left with now acccording to the svc manual is stuff
around the ECM. I don't have a break out connector for the ecm and
I'm nervous about probing around that area, *if* I could even get to
it. I have a n00b problem though in reaching the ECM: How on earth
does one get the kick panel covering the ECM off? Pry it off with a
flat head screwdriver after after removing the weatherstripping?


Also if you've had this probem how did you resolve it? Funky crap on
the ECM connector? Bad ground?

Any suggestions please?

 

(Howard Goldstein) wrote in @news.queue.to:

The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned to
"II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...

Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to body ground
strap. How are they?

<rest of original text snipped>

 

: (Howard Goldstein) wrote in : @news.queue.to:
:
: > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
: > condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
: > won't catch.
: >
: > When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and the
: > fuel pump doesn't run.
:
:
:
: The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned to
: "II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...

Not all the time, it goes out when the relay finally clicks the second
time and the fuel pump starts right up at that point. When the
problem is expressing itself it'll stay on for as long as I sit there
and wait for it, sometimes 3-4 minutes after turning the key to on,
and extinguishes two seconds after the pump comes on (I think II is
the on position, 'll tkae a look at the key when I check the grounds)

:
: Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to body ground
: strap. How are they?

Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that
carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
strap (I'm stupid)? I had the timing belt and the radiator
hoses changed a few months ago, are either of those attachments the
sort that'd have beend disconnected for those services?

 

(Howard Goldstein) wrote in

If the problem is intermittent and the Main Relay's been checked out OK,
I'd certainly be checking for ground problems. Correct Main Relay, ECU
and ignition operation is heavily dependent on proper grounding.

When did the issue surface? Did it happen all of a sudden? Any rust on
the car? Any recent collision damage?

Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to the
rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot smaller than
the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's often frayed, broken
or missing entirely. That's part of the reason some people have such
trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds.

Besides, battery negative goes to the body, not the engine! Battery
positive goes to the starter, which is on the engine. Don't mix them up,
whatever you do!

If the thermostat housing was opened up, that's when somebody often
misses the little wire going to that third bolt. Leaving the ECU ground
undone can cause some pretty strange problems.

 

: (Howard Goldstein) wrote in : @news.queue.to:
:
: > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
: > condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
: > won't catch.
: >
: > When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and the
: > fuel pump doesn't run.
:
:
:
: The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned to
: "II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...

Not all the time, it goes out when the relay finally clicks the second
time and the fuel pump starts right up at that point. When the
problem is expressing itself it'll stay on for as long as I sit there
and wait for it, sometimes 3-4 minutes after turning the key to on,
and extinguishes two seconds after the pump comes on (I think II is
the on position, 'll tkae a look at the key when I check the grounds)

:
: Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to body ground
: strap. How are they?

Not sure. Is the engine to body ground the same thick strap that
carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
strap (I'm stupid)?

(I had the timing belt and the radiator hoses changed a few months ago,
are either of those attachments the sort that'd have beend
disconnected for those services?)

 

: (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
: :
: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:10:57 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <0m>
: > wrote:
: > : (Howard Goldstein) wrote in : > : @news.queue.to:
: > :
: > : > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
: > : > condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
: > : > won't catch.
: > : >
: > : > When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and
: > : > the fuel pump doesn't run.
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned
: > : to "II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...
: >
: > Not all the time, it goes out when the relay finally clicks the second
: > time and the fuel pump starts right up at that point. When the
: > problem is expressing itself it'll stay on for as long as I sit there
: > and wait for it, sometimes 3-4 minutes after turning the key to on,
: > and extinguishes two seconds after the pump comes on (I think II is
: > the on position, 'll tkae a look at the key when I check the grounds)
:
:
:
: If the problem is intermittent and the Main Relay's been checked out OK,
: I'd certainly be checking for ground problems. Correct Main Relay, ECU
: and ignition operation is heavily dependent on proper grounding.
:
: When did the issue surface? Did it happen all of a sudden? Any rust on
: the car? Any recent collision damage?
:

It started happening suddenly. The only thing done was the radiator
hose change and the timing belt/oil pump. No rust, no collissions.


:
: >
: > :
: > : Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to
: > : body ground strap. How are they?
: >
: > Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that
: > carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
: > strap
:
:
:
: Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to the
: rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot smaller than
: the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's often frayed, broken
: or missing entirely. That's part of the reason some people have such
: trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds.
:
: Besides, battery negative goes to the body, not the engine! Battery
: positive goes to the starter, which is on the engine. Don't mix them up,
: whatever you do!
:

Oh from the valve cover to the rad support? I don't remember seeing
one there. There's about three grounds brought together somewhat
beneath the valve cover on the engine front/passenger side, those are
nice and tight and I cleaned them up. I'll look for the spot for htis
other one. It should be shown in the Honda service manual so you
shouldn't need to point me to this one (wishful thinking I think!
This one has me stymied).

:
:
: > (I'm stupid)? I had the timing belt and the radiator
: > hoses changed a few months ago, are either of those attachments the
: > sort that'd have beend disconnected for those services?
: >
:
:
:
: If the thermostat housing was opened up, that's when somebody often
: misses the little wire going to that third bolt. Leaving the ECU ground
: undone can cause some pretty strange problems.

Ahhhh cool I'll hunt this down and report back this eve. Thank you
for the great info and quick response

 

(Howard Goldstein) wrote in

I should have checked earlier to be sure. It appears your engine ground
goes from valve cover to the left-hand shock tower area, not the rad
support.

You've also got a couple of grounds to the transmission housing.

 

: (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
: :
: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:45:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <0m>
: > wrote:
:
: > : >
: > : > Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that
: > : > carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
: > : > strap
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to
: > : the rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot
: > : smaller than the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's
: > : often frayed, broken or missing entirely. That's part of the reason
: > : some people have such trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds.
:
:
:
: I should have checked earlier to be sure. It appears your engine ground
: goes from valve cover to the left-hand shock tower area, not the rad
: support.
:
: You've also got a couple of grounds to the transmission housing.

Thanks. That has got to be the one on the driver's side from the
corner of thevalve cover, goes a few inches over to that tower and
then over to the frame. I cleaned those up with no-residue cleaner
and did a few tightening/untightening cycles, move the tab around, etc
to try to dislodge any gunk. Also did the same to the grounds
attached to the intake manifold (driver side, there's an attachment
point with two heavyish cables each paired with two thin yellow cables
(?)(but it does go to bare metal)(the manual says those are the ECM
grounds? What a weird place to bring them?)

Before I did that though I ohmed out the leads back to the negative
battery cable with the cable detached from the battery and they looked
ok. *However* the problem was not existent when I started doing this.

Another question please: You mentioned another ground over by the
temperature housing? Is this on the firewall-side of the engine,
passenger side? I couldn't find a ground wire there but I don't think
I"m looking in the right place, or I'm not able to see it easily

:
:

 

: You've also got a couple of grounds to the transmission housing.

Should I expect any with a standard transmission?

 

(Howard Goldstein) wrote in

That's the one.

My manual says G101, which is the one under the engine end of the lower rad
hose, which is also the thermostat housing.

It's immediately under the engine end of the lower rad hose. Some cars use
only two bolts on the thermostat housing, with the ground cable attached to
of those two bolts. Hunt around for an unconnected wire around that
location.

 

(Howard Goldstein) wrote in

Don't know. Probably.

 

: (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
: :
:
: >
: > Thanks. That has got to be the one on the driver's side from the
: > corner of thevalve cover, goes a few inches over to that tower and
: > then over to the frame.
:
:
:
: That's the one.
:
:
:
: > I cleaned those up with no-residue cleaner
: > and did a few tightening/untightening cycles, move the tab around, etc
: > to try to dislodge any gunk. Also did the same to the grounds
: > attached to the intake manifold (driver side, there's an attachment
: > point with two heavyish cables each paired with two thin yellow cables
: > (?)(but it does go to bare metal)(the manual says those are the ECM
: > grounds? What a weird place to bring them?)
:
:
:
: My manual says G101, which is the one under the engine end of the lower rad
: hose, which is also the thermostat housing.
:
:
: >
: > Before I did that though I ohmed out the leads back to the negative
: > battery cable with the cable detached from the battery and they looked
: > ok. *However* the problem was not existent when I started doing this.
: >
: > Another question please: You mentioned another ground over by the
: > temperature housing? Is this on the firewall-side of the engine,
: > passenger side? I couldn't find a ground wire there but I don't think
: > I"m looking in the right place, or I'm not able to see it easily
:
:
:
: It's immediately under the engine end of the lower rad hose. Some cars use
: only two bolts on the thermostat housing, with the ground cable attached to
: of those two bolts. Hunt around for an unconnected wire around that
: location.
:
:

I'm pushing my luck with you probably. There are three bolts into the
thermostat, one of them I can't see but can feel, but man I don't feel
or see anything attached or hanging around nearby. You wouldn't
happen to recall where it came from, would you? If not don't sweat
it, you've given me more to poke around on and I need to put a lot
more time into looking around for a loose wire under there
before I bug you again, I need to get a mirror and pull it out into
the daylight tomorrow.

FWIW, thus far I've cleaned and resecured G101 (above) G1, and G2 and
G351. I'm not sure how to get at G201 and G301 which the diagrams
show stuck up in the front corners around the marker lights. Velly
intelesting...

 

---------------------------

Sit quietly in the car with the key in position II. Smack the dash on
the left side of the steering wheel. If the fuel pump is heard to run
for three seconds, the car will now start. It will also keep running
because of the vibration.

Resolder the relay. (don't unbolt it, just slip it out of it's case by
pulling on the harness and prying with a small screwdriver).

I was gonna say Merry Christmas

'Curly'

 

: Howard Goldstein wrote:
: > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
:
: ---------------------------
:
: Sit quietly in the car with the key in position II. Smack the dash on
: the left side of the steering wheel. If the fuel pump is heard to run
: for three seconds, the car will now start. It will also keep running
: because of the vibration.

Sadly, no. Relay is fine.

:
: Resolder the relay. (don't unbolt it, just slip it out of it's case by
: pulling on the harness and prying with a small screwdriver).
:

I covered that in the snipped parts of my post

 

(Howard Goldstein) wrote in

..

Then you have the usual three bolt style. Two of those bolts are long
and go into the thermostat housing, holding the thermostat cover on. The
third is very short (same head size) and only holds the ground wire to
the thermostat cover.

It is /possible/ Honda used the 3-bolt style of housing from other
vehicles, but never actually put a ground wire to it.

There ought to be, /if/ I'm remembering correctly from what I have seen.
Lord knows where it might be if it's got messed up with other wiring.

I don't. I'm thinking /if/ it's there at all (and it might not be), it
should still be hanging around someplace close by. Unless somebody's
taped or cut it off...

My manual says G101 is the ECU ground, but then my manual also shows a
2-bolt thermostat cover...

Sometimes there are mistakes in the manuals, so what we're seeing in
them isn't necessarily correct, and I don't have an actual Accord handy
to look at.

 

: (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
: :
: .
: > :
: > :
: >
: > I'm pushing my luck with you probably. There are three bolts into the
: > thermostat,
:
:
:
: Then you have the usual three bolt style. Two of those bolts are long
: and go into the thermostat housing, holding the thermostat cover on. The
: third is very short (same head size) and only holds the ground wire to
: the thermostat cover.
:
: It is /possible/ Honda used the 3-bolt style of housing from other
: vehicles, but never actually put a ground wire to it.
:

It's really tough to see what's going on with this housing. I can
only see one bolt head, another is attached to what looks like a
useless bracket, and a third is on the underside below the rad hose
and I can only feel that


:
:
: > one of them I can't see but can feel, but man I don't feel
: > or see anything attached or hanging around nearby.
:
:
:
: There ought to be, /if/ I'm remembering correctly from what I have seen.
: Lord knows where it might be if it's got messed up with other wiring.

Yeah, looks like I need a mirror or something and poke around with
that. Times like this I wish the ancients had picked a different
color for ground, like glow-in-the-dark green or something....

:
:
:
: > You wouldn't
: > happen to recall where it came from, would you? If not don't sweat
: > it,
:
:
:
: I don't. I'm thinking /if/ it's there at all (and it might not be), it
: should still be hanging around someplace close by. Unless somebody's
: taped or cut it off...
:
:
:
: > you've given me more to poke around on and I need to put a lot
: > more time into looking around for a loose wire under there
: > before I bug you again, I need to get a mirror and pull it out into
: > the daylight tomorrow.
: >
: > FWIW, thus far I've cleaned and resecured G101 (above) G1, and G2 and
: > G351. I'm not sure how to get at G201 and G301 which the diagrams
: > show stuck up in the front corners around the marker lights. Velly
: > intelesting...
: >
:
:
: My manual says G101 is the ECU ground, but then my manual also shows a
: 2-bolt thermostat cover...

As does my manual.

Pardon two very silly questions. If I've gotten everything reasonable
the only connections I've yet to clean are the connectors for the ECM
and the ground that the manual shows inside the cabin, passenger side,
above the ECM. Can you think of any reason I shouldn't at least hit
the ECM sockets and the connector with good no-residue contact cleaner
in case I can dislodge potential oxidation? If there aren't good
reasons not to do this then HTH do folks I get the kickpanels off?
After lifting the weatherstipping and carpet I've got access to it but
tugging at the panel doesn't do any good. Can I pry it off with a
flathead screwdriver to pop the kickpanel's plastic anchors out of the
body (is there a better way?)

:
: Sometimes there are mistakes in the manuals, so what we're seeing in
: them isn't necessarily correct, and I don't have an actual Accord handy
: to look at.

At least part of the problem here is relying on my descriptions. I'm
only slightly better with cars than I am with household plumbing, and
that's not saying much.

 

(Howard Goldstein) wrote in

No reason /not/ to do that...except that Honda does not ground its ECMs
at that location.

And it is very rare for Honda grounds to become compromised which are
inside the passenger compartment.

They're held on with metal friction clips. Grab the panel at its edges
and pull gently to see where it flexes least. The locations of least
flex are the clip locations. Move your fingers there and tug sharply.
The clips will pop out of their holes. Wrap your fingers as far around
the panel as possible to minimize flex as you yank.

Tug more sharply. Those clips are in there quite solidly.

See above. Fingers only; no screwdrivers. Don't be afraid to give it a
good hard yank. The more suddenly force is applied, the more effective
it will be.

If I had actual hands-on experience with this model, we'd probably have
this fixed by now, but I don't. A suggestion: Go to a local U-Pull
wrecking yard. Find a copy of your model there. Inspect--with a bright
flashlight and a mirror--the same area of your car on the wreck. A
wrecking yard excursion will also allow you to study without penalty how
plastic trim panels come off.

You can purchase fairly inexpensively an extensible inspection mirror at
any auto parts place, such as AutoZone, Kragen, NAPA...

 

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