96 Civic - Catalytic converter

Thinking about buying a '96 Civic DX Coupe from a trusted private
party.

However, within the past week, the check engine light has come on. The
Honda dealer says it needs a new catalytic converter to the tune of
about $800. Midas quoted $750. The car has 160,000 miles on it so
it's out of any warranty that might apply.

I did a little web research and can't seem to find good information on
aftermarket converters for this car. I found some performance kits
but don't know if I want to go that route - I live in Ohio in a county
that does emission testing.

Anyone have any experience on this matter? Are there aftermarket
converters available?

The party I'm dealing with has offered to have it fixed before the
sale or deduct the amount from the price that we agreed on. I'm just
wondering if I can save a few bucks by having it fixed myself.

 

Got this in writing? This is really pretty much all that's wrong?

I think I'd consider getting a second opinion by another mechanic. E.g. I'd be
curious about whether the oxygen sensors were okay.

Dunno about aftermarket converters, but based on other exhaust system experience
I have had, I'd say that the various online Honda parts dealers may beat most
any local shop's price for the cost of the converter by itself. (Labor then has
to be added on.)

If I were you, I'd consider making the deal based on what the dealer would
charge for the repair, then finding a local shop that would be willing to
install a converter I provided them, then buying the converter itself online,
etc.

E.g.
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/home.htm sells a converter for a 1996 2-door
DX Civic for $471 (shipping may be extra). Add a bit more for gaskets and
covers that probably need replacement. The shop you use may have these and you
could leave these parts up to them.

For the middle exhaust pipe of my 1991 Civic, I found the best price at
http://catalog.honda-auto-parts-wholesale.com/ . I searched for converters and
couldn't locate them at this site, but maybe I missed something. I'd give them a
call at 1-800-279-6698.

Others may come forth to suggest other online sites that sell this car's
converter.

Where I live (out West), one could save at least a hundred bucks by having a
non-dealer independent shop do the work. Shopping around tends to pay off, and
muffler shops seem willing to give an estimate for something like this over the
phone.

Good luck.

 

I could be wrong, but I thought the the Oxygen sensor was part of the
catalytic converter.

Pars

 

The oxygen sensor looks sort of like a spark plug and is installed in the
exhaust piping. A '96 may have two: One before the cat and one after.

Older (bead type) catalytic conveters had a temperature sensor that
inserted directly into the cat. Modern monolithic cats do not have these.

 

No. The O2 sensor is located upstream of the catalytic converter,
usually in the exhaust manifold. Oftentimes newer cars have an
additional O2 sensor downstream of the converter. The job of this second
sensor is to assess the health of the converter.

 

spake unto the masses in

I'm curious to know the emissions numbers. Please post them. Sometimes it's
just an insufficiently warmed-up cat, dirty injectors or plugged EGR that
gets misdiagnosed as an old cat. 160K seems awfully young to have a cat go
bad.

Does your state use MTBE as an octane enhancer in its gas?

Depends on your regulatory regime. I can get a universal-fit aftermarket
cat for $100, but then I'm in Canada, which is a bit laxer for emissions
laws than your Nazi-EPA.

Some states do not permit aftermarket cats at all, but only OEM ones
regardless of who sells it. Your state may be one of those.

Call any muffler shop or NAPA store you find in your phone book. That's the
only way. If your state regs permit aftermarket, you will discover this
here; there will be a _substantial_ difference in price. Remember my $100
universal-fit cat? Dealer price for an OEM cat up here is...$1,100. That's
one thousand, one hundred dollars. Canadian. So about $800 US.

 

What county are you in???? Hamilton Co. here.

What was the check engine light (CEL) code????

 

First, thanks to those of you who replied.

After some more research, I have learned the following:

- The converter in this car is attached directly to the exhaust
manifold.
- There are two oxygen sensors; one in the exhaust manifold before the
converter and one downstream after the converter.
- The signals from both oxygen sensors are compared to determine the
health of the catalytic converter.

Because of these facts, a universal converter is not an option.

I have come to the conclusion (righ or wrong) that this job is best
left to the Dealer. The $150 savings I COULD realize by finding a
converter myself and having someone else do it are not worth the
trouble and risk involved.

The seller is willing to reduce the price by the amount of a dealer
repaire anyway so I'm not really losing in the deal.

Thanks again for the replies.

p.s. to Tegger - I don't know if MTBE is used in my state (Ohio). And
I may post back with the emission figures when I get them.

 

Sounds wise.

I hope you plan to ask the dealer to determine why the catalytic converter died,
and then also confirm that they corrected the 'cause of death.' Updates here
are welcome. Of course, it could be just age that did the converter in...

 

Lake county (NE of Cleveland)

Don't know what the exact code was - the seller spoke with the Dealer
that diagnosed the problem. I don't think they gave her the code.

 

I would think that the oxygen sensors are worn out but not the catalytic
converter. An O2 sensor starts to go bad at around 100K miles and it
stops working around 160K miles. I had my catalytic converter replaced
at around 130K miles, due to a cracked manifold, and it was as clean as
new inside.

The dealership sells O2 sensors for some ridiculous amount of money.
Buy the Bosch replacement.

 

How's that? A failed upstream oxygen sensor can cause the catalyst in the
converter to overheat. The converter will no longer work correctly after this.

Dunno what the codes for the check engine light on this car are, but for now I
wouldn't rule out either or both the cat. converter and upstream oxygen sensor
having failed.

I wonder if this varies a lot according to driving habits.

My 1991 Civic is almost at 150k miles. Is it worthwhile to pre-empt a possible
sudden failure and replace the oxygen sensor soon?

What is the longest anyone has had the original oxygen sensor on their car,
miles and years-wise.

 

93 Civic DX HB AT 180,000 miles so far (and original owner)

John M.

 

A 96 model should be smart enough to not damage the catalytic converter.
Melting it requires something more severe than a slightly-off mixture.
You need to have misfiring; passing through unburned gasoline and oxygen.

It's not a sudden failure. The sensor gets progressively slower as it
ages. The first symptoms are occasional hesitations or jerks when
stepping on the gas or shifting. Eventually you get surging and
stumbling acceleration. Finally the ECU ignores the sensor and turns on
the red dash light.

Mine is starting to go bad. I should be covered by the extended
EPA/CARB warranty but it seems that a body shop replaced it for no
apparent reason. It's not a warrantied stock sensor anymore.

140K miles, but I've never waited for the malfunction light. The bad
performance of a failing sensor annoys me too much.

Bosch says theirs begin to fail around 100K miles.

 

Thanks, Kevin. I put a copy of this in my car repair notes.

Thanks, too, John M. for sharing your O2 sensor experience.

 

I just had this problem with my 94 Integra that has 208,000 miles of hard
driving!!!

The check engine light came on and the code was 41.....Overheated oxygen
sensor!....I found a Denso for $150.00 and a mechanic friend of mine put it on
for "cheap". He said the old one was so burnt onto the manifold that he had to
"heat" it off and said anyone else would have made me get a whole converter
assembly.

Would you believe that I had a transmission flush, an O2 sensor replaced, all
spark plugs replaced, all wires ohm tested, and a PCV valve replaced for $65.00
+ a grilled chicken salad and a cup of coffee!!

Recommend new spark plugs with sensor change!

 

Hmmm....I thought I had made the decision to have the dealer replace
the converter but now I'm not so sure.

Maybe the oxygen sensor(s) are the problem. But, based on the last
few posts, you would think that the car would show signs of aging o2
sensors by running poorly. Quite the contrary - it purrs like a
kitten.

Anyone know if replacing the O2 sensors is a D-I-Y job? Any pointers
from the pros?

 

Got the car yesterday and had it E-checked. It passed - here are the
numbers:

HC 8.7 PPM (Limit is 97.0)
CO 0.22 % (Limit is 0.54)
NO 408.8 PPM (Limit is 749.0)
CO2 15.17 %

BTW The check engine light is not currently on. I'm starting to think
that the cc is ok and that something else caused the misdiagnosis.

 

spake unto the masses in

Entirely possible. Your numbers are about in line now for a cat with 160K
on it. You'll probably eventually fail around 200K-220K or so on high NO as
the cat ages.

 

I'm thinking maybe you should post the name of that dealer who said the car
needed a new catalytic converter...

;-)