98' Accord, Rear camber not adjustable?

Hi group,

The alignment guy says my rear camber is out of tolerance, and needs to
be adjusted. However, he adds, there is no adjustment on the standard Accord
EX. He has some parts(struts?) for about $300(installed & aligned) that will
fix this.

A. Does this make sense?
B. Are his prices in line?
C. Do I have any options?

Al

 

Can happen if something's bent, if the bushings are badly worn, or if the
springs are sagging.

True. Camber isn't adjustable on any Honda, with the OEM parts.

And you don't want to mess with the factory setup unless you or your
mechanic really know what you're doing. You can get into a peck of trouble
very quickly with the wrong alignment.

Makes sense, sure. It's probably adjustable aftermarket control arms.

Do you really need it? How far off is the alignment? Is the toe properly
settable? Are you getting odd tire wear?

You probably have more negative camber than you should have. The rear on
these is set up for positive toe and negative camber. This means the fronts
of the tires point inward, and the inside top of the tires lean inward.
Results in a tendency to understeer, which is desirable from a road-going
safety perspective.

I'd make sure the $300 isn't going towards covering up some other problem
first.

 

Ditto every word of Tegger's post.

If it was not the dealer who checked the alignment, I'd go
to a dealer and have this redone. They'll look for worn/bent
parts. Your guy should have looked for them, too, and then
explained. Otherwise, either this does not add up, or
something was lost in translation when your alignment guy
explained the problem.

What symptoms occurred that caused you to get the alignment?

 

struts [shocks] won't affect the camber one little bit, so make sure you
understand what he's trying to sell you.

things that will affect camber are curb damage [probably just one side,
not both], and worn bushings. [get the alignment printout and look at
it to check. if there's no printout, he may not have checked and is
just trying to sell you stuff.] if camber is out on one side, see if
you can find a frame straightening shop or get some aftermarket "speed
shop" type camber adjusters. if both sides, the worn bushings should be
obvious from looking at them if you take the wheel off. if the vehicle
is high mileage, handling would benefit from bushing changes.

 

Thanks guys,

The thing that got this started was a bit of a shimmy at 65mph, and some
abnormal tire wear, originally spotted on the front. (Car has 61,000 miles)

Yes, I saw a printout of the form from the alignment machine, and it
showed excellent alignment on the front, and camber problems on the rear. I
left the form at home this morning, so I don't have the exact numbers, but
it was both rear tires, (also showing abnormal wear), and as I remember ther
were -2.7 or so? I'll check this and get back to you. Toe looked Ok.

The alignment guy didn't say anything about how it got there. No mention
of damage or wear. He did say that the tires on the front had been rotated
from the rear. I've only owned the car for a little over a year, so I don't
have a real exact history.

I love the car, and handling is very good. I want to get it fixed in a
manner that will allow me to keep the car forever.

Teggar, you and the group are a terrific "resource", be careful someone
doesn't make a national park out of you.

Al G

 

If you have this redone at the dealer, also have them check
and report to you on the ride height ( = distance from frame
to ground, measured at specified points). After checking
tire air pressure and maybe doing an under the car
inspection of parts, ride height is the first thing any
reputable shop should check.

Ride height is going to be a good indicator of sagging
springs and/or worn bushings. If the ride height is off,
alignment cannot be checked meaningfully. The shop should
understand your concern.

Sagging springs and/or soft shocks can cause camber
problems, according to sites like
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/WheelsTires.html . ISTM
common sense suggests the same.

Just seems a little early for a 98 Accord with only 61k
miles to have coil spring or shock problems. This group does
not get a lot of reports of sagging springs or shocks being
a problem as far as tire wear is concerned, ISTM. Still,
shocks do fail, for one. The springs flat out break, for
another, and spring breakage is not always readily
detectable, since it may be at, say, the very bottom of the
spring.

Bushing wear is very common. Ball joint wear occurs, too.
Either may cause ride height and so tire wear and so
alignment problems.

 

snip good stuff...

Ok, I've got the sheet today.

left rear had a camber of -1.1, and the right rear was -1.0
left rear had a toe of -.07, and the right rear was -.12, for a total
of -.19

thrust angle was .02

Al

 

check with the honda service manual, but that may be [just] within spec.
the point is, they're both the same, so it's unlikely to be impact
damage, just bushing wear. unless you're having handling or tire wear
issues, i'd ignore the camber and just concentrate on the toe which
definitely needs attention and /is/ adjustable.

did you find out exactly what he was trying to sell you?

 

Yes, "adjustable rear control arms".

Estimate says 1 hour to install, and the $300 includes the 4 wheel
alignment.

My dealer want $60 to check it out, $400 to fix it with no adjustable parts,
and another %60 to align it again.

Tire pressure is good, but showing abnormal wear on the inside of the rear
tires.

Thanks for your input guys, I know more about this now than yesterday.

Al G

 

if they've been rotated, that could be inherited from misalignment at
the front!

bottom line, if camber is an issue, and i'm not sure that it is based on
the figures you provided, it's because something's damaged or worn.
putting adjustable camber control arms on the vehicle is just putting
lipstick on the pig. i wouldn't do it unless i was lowering the car or
had a structural misalignment issue that couldn't be sorted out
economically at a decent frame shop.

 

Your rear camber should be -0º25' +- 30'.
This means you are approximately a quarter of a degree out on the right,
and just over that on the left.

This is a tiny non-compliance, really. Your car (as the others have said)
is a bit young for bushing wear, although that likely accounts for what
you're seeing. The non-compliance is also too small to indicate collision
damage. If I were you, I'd leave it alone and just make sure I rotated the
tires every other oil change or so.

No prob at all.

Enjoy your Honda.

 

Don't spend any money on this. See my other reply. You are just fine,
believe me.

 

Or the range is -55 minutes to +5 minutes.
Also known as -55/60 degree to +5/60 degree.

Am I missing something? If the ideal rear camber on each
wheel is negative 25 minutes, and this gentleman's 98 Accord
has a negative one degree camber on the rear right, then
isn't his 98 Accord's rear right camber off by

35/60 degree = 0.58 degree = 35 minutes from ideal
5/60 degree = 0.083 degree = 5 minutes from the outer spec
of -55 minutes

His 98 Accord's rear left camber is off by

1.1-25/60 = .6833... = 41 minutes from ideal
1.1-55/60 = 0.1833... = 11 minutes from the outer spec
of -55 minutes

Where did you get the specifications from, anyway? I'm sure
you have them right; I'm just curious.

Seems Dick at
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/browse_frm/thread/5730dfb62862ca3a/3ad233f04523fa98?lnk=st&q=camber+accord+specifications&rnum=3#3ad233f04523fa98
found a different number for the ideal rear camber spec.
Interesting that this 2005 thread has a poster trying to be
sold on "adjustable rear control arms," too.

 

I got them from the factory shop manual.

Yes, you are right. His camber *is* off. But my point was that it's not off
by enough for it to be worth spend money fixing it.

If he was suffering from steering pull (which he appears not to be), or
excessive tire wear (also not present) then there would be a more pressing
need to have it fixed.

If there's no pull but slightly accelerated tire wear, rotation will even
that out for a long time.

 

You yourself said that in the post previous to mine. My
point, as you know, is there are 60 angular minutes in an
angular degree. To clarify for newbies yada.

That's unclear. He said he's having abnormal wear.

A complete inspection of the suspension, especially parts
susceptible to wear, seems appropriate to me.

 

I missed that. How bad though? Is it light enough that he could save
himself $300 by simply rotating the tires?

That's what I said in my first reply to him:
"I'd make sure the $300 isn't going towards covering up some other problem
first."

 

The alignment guy said that the tire wear was "into secondary rubber, around
the inside of the tire", now showing on all 4, after rotation(s). I've
looked and cannot see much other than a dark stripe on the very inside
corner of each tire. The inside treads are also slightly "feathered". After
the rotation last week, I am hearing a whine, kind of like I have snow
tires, directly related to speed.

It is sounding like the camber is a minor deal, so I assume the wear is
coming from the toe, which is adjustable. If the camber problem is
attributable to the bushings, how expensive should it be to replace them?

Is it? Then where might the the tire wear coming from?

Thanks all for your responses, I am learning more about my Honda which I
dearly love. While I do not normally drive aggressively, I do enjoy precise
handling, and there have been times when I have had to drive very
aggressively. My daughter was born 4 minutes after arriving at the ER, after
a 45 minute drive, done in way less than 45 minutes.

Gratefully:

Al G