98 civic brake drag issue

Good evening,

As indicated in another post the other day, the fuel mileage in my 98 civic
is lacking. I've had it since new, it now has 282000kms on it. It has been
somewhat neglected over the past year or so, as we've had a kid and my spare
time is now dedicated to that. I know I know, I need to keep the jalopy safe
enough to drive. Explain that to my wife.

Decided to check the brakes today, (front side). Sure enough, the front
driverside is dragging. I put the car up on jacks, started it and put it in
second. Until I hit the gas, only the passenger side wheel would turn.

Other symptoms, which may or may not be related, are that I am getting
abnormal tire wear on the passenger side. That tire is cupped beyond what I
have ever seen, and is now through the wear bars. The tire on the driver
side is fine with about 2-3mm before the wear bars.

Also noticed a hum coming from the front of the vehicle which becomes
apparent upon moving.

Note that I have replaced the caliper with a rebuilt to solve almost the same
problem a year or so ago. However, the rebuild was not from Honda, and the
hardware provided with it did not fit. I had to use my old hardware to
complete. All seemed fine since recently noticing the fuel economy drop.

To remedy these problems, I am thinking about the following:

1. New brake pad shims and hardware for the caliper in question (probably
both, just to be thorough).

2. Complete brake fluid flush.

3. Check slide pins for wear.

4. Replace wheel bearings? (not sure on this, there is some end play, could
a dragging caliper cause the bearing to fail?)

Any other suggestions?

Thanks for your help.
Terry in Winnipeg.

 

Check -- according to the instructions on my Web site -- in order:
1) Pads seized on mount bracket,
2) Slide pins seized in bores,
3) Caliper piston seized in bore.

You need to pull the brakes apart completely and do a thorough
investigation. The usual suspect in the case of a disc brake not
releasing is a seized caliper piston (the big one that presses on the
pads), but often the rest of the caliper system is in need of care as
well.

Wear like this CAN be due to worn suspension components, but is usually
badly mounted tire or suspension misalignment, with poor tire mounting
covering about 90% of the occurrences.

That's the cupping you hear.

You can rebuild your own front calipers. The dealership sells the seals,
and some Sil-Glyde silicone-based grease can be used as an assembly
lube. (DON'T use brake fluid to lube the hydraulic seal).

See above.

BLEED and FILL only! Do not use flushig compounds!

And if you've not been in the habit of changing the fluid every few
years, do not use the "pedal press" method of bleeding. Beware of seized
bleed nipples. Crack one of those off and you need a complete rebuild.

Unlikely unless the hub is getting red ot on you.

Spend some time here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/rustybrakes/brakes1.html

 

Thanks Tegger for your hard work on that website and input.

So I replaced the Brake Caliper again. Got it from Partsource. I know this
is not a preferred source, but thats where the original replacement came from,
and they asked me to try this before they would refund my money.

This time, the clips and hardware that came with the caliper actually worked.
As I mentioned earlier, I figured that would be one of the biggest reasons
why the brake was hanging in the first place. Sure enough, upon disassembly
of the caliper bracket, the old clips were in very sorry shape.

Got it all installed, lubed her up as you indicated (careful not to get any
on the rotor surface or surrounding areas).

On another topic, as I indicated earlier, I have now confirmed that the front
wheel bearing is bad on the same side the caliper was dragging. Since the
caliper was defective, do you think Partsource will help me out on the
bearing? Pretty sure the reason it failed was due to heat buildup from the
bad caliper. I guess there is a margin for installation error, but is it
worth a shot?

So then I bled out the new caliper. Took it for a short spin to try some low
speed braking to check for pulling left or right, performance, all seemed
fine. Tried a couple higher speed stops, no problem.

On the highway at 80 km/h I hit the brakes pretty hard. The car suddenly
went all squirrelly on me, got away from me, and I ended up in the ditch.

So now I have other issues. I am OK by the way. The car is mostly undamaged.
It definitely needs an alignment now, along with a few suspension components.
I noticed my rear upper suspension mounts are now both loose. Will replace
those tomorrow. Here's what I checked over:

1. Both lower ball joints are under a year old. They seem fine using the
'reef on the tire while on the ground' method.

2. Both Upper ball joints - no extra play. Tried moving the steering
knuckle back and forth to test this.

3. Tie rods - no extra play. Just grabbed one and tried moving back and
forth. There is a small amount of play due to a worn steering u-joint, but
the tie rods and rack seem OK.

4. Springs all around. - no problems apparent. Visual inspection in the
areas Tegger indicated.

5. Rear upper control arms - both are shot. Once again, the 'reef on the
tire' method. LOTS of play here. They are definitely shot. The Rear Upper
arm does come with both bushings (inner and outer) so I am hoping this will
fix that.

6. Rear Lower control arms - no noticeable play. Wasn't quite sure how to
test these, but everything appeared tight.

Did I miss anything?

The car doesn't feel safe at highway speeds right now, though the steering
seems fine. I'm thinking its the play from the rear upper arms that is
causing the problem here.

So, to anybody reading this, when doing your own brake work, BE CAREFUL when
you road test your vehicle. I was EXTREMELY lucky. and probably stupid. OK
definitely stupid.

Any input on the suspension inspection is appreciated. Once the car is road
worthy, she goes in for a final inspection and alignment at the dealer.

Glad I can smile about it now.
Terry in Winnipeg.

 

the wishbone civics are very sensitive to the rear being good. top
joints will definitely cause a problem, as will the main trailing arm
pivot. at nearly 10 years old, there's a good chance they need
attention. jack the rear off the ground and inspect for cracking. when
all's good, make sure you get a good rear alignment done.

 

You should apply a bit of Sil-Glyde to the hydraulic piston so it will
slide more easily on the seal. The Sil-Glyde helps prevent gum buildup
that causes piston seizure. Aftermarket remans often are assembled with
brake fluid, to save on costs.

And making sure to put just a tiny dab (1/8" dia on rears, 1/4" on
fronts) on the squeal shims. The grease will spread like crazy once the
piston clamps everything together.

I suppose so, but I don't think you'll get very far. They can simply
point out that wheel bearings go bad all the time through simple
corrosion. You can't know for sure unless you remove it and take it
apart.

Sorry to hear that.

What may have happened here is that the replacement of just one caliper
caused an imbalance in braking effort. It is always best to rebuild or
replace in axle sets, just like shocks. This way you're assured of equal
effort from either caliper.

Not reliable. Pop the taper, lever the lower arm out of the way, then
wiggle by hand. That's the only sure way to tell.

Again, not necessarily a good test. Test as lower balls above.

Were the tires jacked up so they were at their usual attitude relative
to the body, or were they hanging down? Wear will be masked if the
steering linkage is not at its usual riding attitude.

Broken springs tend to be experientially invisible; you won't know the
spring is broken unless you look.

Replacing the upper arm is very easy, but it's best to use an impact
wrench.

Check for cracks in the big bushing. Let the tire hang so as to distort
the bushing, then have a look with a strong light. Cracks will be
obvious. Anything but a complete breakup means the bushing is OK for
now.

It's possible. At this point I would take the car to a trusted shop and
have the entire suspension gone over by a pro.

I think the primary problem here was the repalcement of just one
caliper.

 

Thanks for the replies.

Will do a more thorough suspension check tonight. On the way home from work,
I will be picking up:

Passenger side caliper
Both rear upper suspension arms
Wheel bearing

Hopefully doing the suspension arms will make the car roadworthy enough to
bring to a shop.

Anyone got anything against Kal Tire for alignments? I was thinking about
getting 2 new tires, thought I could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. The Honda
dealers in winnipeg aren't great for alignments.

Thanks
t

 

Perhaps stupid question.... Should front wheel bearings be done in pairs?

t

 

Not necessary, no.

However, if one is going, the other will be a year or three behind.

 

unless my theory is correct and the brake caliper overheating caused the
bearing failure.

Oh yeah, they gave me a 35% discount on the bearing when I brought it up.
Decided not to push it.

t

 

not likely unless the caliper was near locked. you can race hondas with
the disks glowing and the bearings seem to do just fine.

 

I think that's rather unlikely.

The bearing failures I've seen are caused by corrosion and impact.

If the heat from the caliper were to cook the bearing's grease enough to
cause bearing damage, I can't see that being evident for many tens of
thousands of miles. Before you heard noise, the surface of the balls would
have to begin breaking up, which doesn't happen in a few weeks.

Take it. It's a good deal, considering they are almost certainly blameless
for the bearing.

Get the old bearing back and take pictures if you can. I'd like to see
them. I'll bet you'll find rust on the races.

 

Busted the lower bolt on the passenger side rear upper arm.

SHIT.

t

 

You mean the outer bolt, the one that goes into the top of the trailing
arm?

Did the head break off?

Did you use an electric impact wrench (rentable)?

 

Its a #10 x 62 bolt as per Majestic Honda microfiche (98 civic LX 5MT, Rear
lower arm), which I am pretty sure is the one you indicated. Its part number
18 on this page : http://tinyurl.com/youdwa

I was using impact, borrowed my bro-in-laws compressor. Tried 2 guns, first
the big beasty he has (650 ft-lb) and then the little one (more bangs per
minute). The bolt was severely seized inside the outer bushing. I had put
some Zep 45 penetrating oil on it several times over the past couple days in
preparation for this job. The driver side was difficult as well, but I broke
through the rust on that one. The passenger side never came close to letting
go. I guess sometimes thats just the way it goes....

On the driver side, the inner bushing fell out of the arm when I removed the
inner bolts. Obviously in need of replacement. The outer bushing was not in
terrible shape, but there was some play.

On the passenger side, the inner bushing was worn, and I was able to get it
out with a little effort. The outer bushing I have no idea as I destroyed it
trying to get the freakin bolt out.

In fact, the bolt was so seized in the bushing sleeve (made of aluminum of
all things) that it started to push the mounting points apart and bend the
trailing arm. Put a stop to that buy using a C-Clamp to prevent them from
spreading. Had to be careful though, as I did not want to ruin the threads
in the welded nut. After I got it out, I whacked the mounting points back in
line with a hammer. Then used the bolt I didn't snap to ensure it was lined
up.

After an hour of impact, I used the breaker bar on the stubborn bolt and the
head snapped off. I used and angle grinder to get the rest out.

Off to the dealer for a new bolt. I'll probably get 2, the bolt is machined
with ridges on it to prevent spinning. I'm thinking a new bolt on both sides
will help prevent loosening over time as there is no other method being used
to prevent spinning out.

Or should I be using loctite on the welded nut?

By the way, inspection of the front big bushing on the lower arm yielded some
cracking. However, I think these have a ways to go before they will need
replacement. Guess I will find out during the alignment.

Also, I realized I didn't respond to your question a few messages ago about
my suspension inspection (ie the tie rods). I had the car on ramps and was
underneath on a creeper, so to answer your question, yes the wheels were at
ride height, since all 4 tires were on the ground.

t

 

Here's a trick you might want to try next time: /TIGHTEN/ the bolt before
trying to crack it loose.

Another trick: Since you don't care what happens to the bushing rubber,
heat the bolt head and nut to orange with a torch, then let them cool all
the way down. Then try the tighten/loosen thing. This is remarkably
effective.

 

Forgot to mention that I used those technics as well (didn't mention cuz they
didn't work!). Though I only had a propane torch, so I doubt I could get it
hot enough.

Also, the big reason impact is less effective in this application is because
of the rubber bushing. It cushions the assembly from the full effect of the
impact.

Just got back from the dealer. I'm walking a little funny... The bolts they
gave me cost $12 each!

Majestic Honda = $0.78.

WTF!! I hate dealers.

t

 

A propane torch should be just fine. You only need to head up the
threads in the nut, and the bottom of the head. Another thing you could
try is to dump a large amount of ice water on the orange-hot parts. The
thermal shock may well break the rust seal.

That's why you tighten first. Tightening clamps the bushing sleeve to
the arm, forcing the bolt to be the one and only thing that moves. With
the sleeve clamped thusly, the bushing has no effect on impact effort.

If you tried all these things and the bolt just wouldn't let go, you
must have had some seriously bad corrosion. One of my rear bolts (damper
fork/LCA) was like that, and required to be ground off.

Majestic may be buying local bolts rather than ordering them from Honda.
The correct bolts have fine threads, and usually have fluting on their
shanks.

I bought all my suspension fasteners from the dealer. A big price, but
at least they're correct for the car.

 

Alrighty. First, thanks Tegger and jim beam for your input.

Put the back end of my car back together tonight. New rear upper arms, and
new shocks (monroe). Seems to have taken care of the play I mentioned
earlier. New shocks also make the car sit a little higher than before. The
old shocks were tired....

Snapped another bolt (shock mount to lower arm), but thankfully I had an
extra (dealer actually sold me those bolts instead of the other one I broke
yesterday, they didn't have the right one in stock. These are the shock
mount bolt and the lower arm to trailing arm pivot bolt).

Drives like a champ. Well a champ in need of an alignment... Saturday will
bring me to the front end. Will be doing that wheel bearing, the passenger
caliper, and the front shocks. The guy at Partsource sold me some stabilizer
bar links. For the life of me I can't seem to remember there being a
stabilizer bar on my car. I thought that they were just in the SIs. But
perhaps I've just never noticed it.

One thing... how hard is it to screw up reassembly of the strut in the rear?
For some reason, I couldn't get the top mounting collar to seat where I
thought it should. The strut went back on no problem and everything seems ok,
but I found it a bit odd.

After front end stuff is done, its off to the tire shop.

And after seeing how complex the rear wishbone is, its going to the dealer
for alignment. Don't trust just any monkey to monkey around with all that
stuff...

t

 

Alrighty. First, thanks Tegger and jim beam for your input.

Put the back end of my car back together tonight. New rear upper arms, and
new shocks (monroe). Seems to have taken care of the play I mentioned
earlier. New shocks also make the car sit a little higher than before. The
old shocks were tired....

Snapped another bolt (shock mount to lower arm), but thankfully I had an
extra (dealer actually sold me those bolts instead of the other one I broke
yesterday, they didn't have the right one in stock. These are the shock
mount bolt and the lower arm to trailing arm pivot bolt).

Drives like a champ. Well a champ in need of an alignment... Saturday will
bring me to the front end. Will be doing that wheel bearing, the passenger
caliper, and the front shocks. The guy at Partsource sold me some stabilizer
bar links. For the life of me I can't seem to remember there being a
stabilizer bar on my car. I thought that they were just in the SIs. But
perhaps I've just never noticed it.

One thing... how hard is it to screw up reassembly of the strut in the rear?
For some reason, I couldn't get the top mounting collar to seat where I
thought it should. The strut went back on no problem and everything seems ok,
but I found it a bit odd.

After front end stuff is done, its off to the tire shop.

And after seeing how complex the rear wishbone is, its going to the dealer
for alignment. Don't trust just any monkey to monkey around with all that
stuff...

t

 

Alrighty. First, thanks Tegger and jim beam for your input.

Put the back end of my car back together tonight. New rear upper arms, and
new shocks (monroe). Seems to have taken care of the play I mentioned
earlier. New shocks also make the car sit a little higher than before. The
old shocks were tired....

Snapped another bolt (shock mount to lower arm), but thankfully I had an
extra (dealer actually sold me those bolts instead of the other one I broke
yesterday, they didn't have the right one in stock. These are the shock
mount bolt and the lower arm to trailing arm pivot bolt).

Drives like a champ. Well a champ in need of an alignment... Saturday will
bring me to the front end. Will be doing that wheel bearing, the passenger
caliper, and the front shocks. The guy at Partsource sold me some stabilizer
bar links. For the life of me I can't seem to remember there being a
stabilizer bar on my car. I thought that they were just in the SIs. But
perhaps I've just never noticed it.

One thing... how hard is it to screw up reassembly of the strut in the rear?
For some reason, I couldn't get the top mounting collar to seat where I
thought it should. The strut went back on no problem and everything seems ok,
but I found it a bit odd.

After front end stuff is done, its off to the tire shop.

And after seeing how complex the rear wishbone is, its going to the dealer
for alignment. Don't trust just any monkey to monkey around with all that
stuff...

t