99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

Badly need help figuring out what is wrong. All this started after a
valve adjustment which was done improperly, and fixed later by me.

Here is what I know till date. The car runs okay for the first 15
minutes or so and then the performance and mileage drop drastically.
It seems to limp around even if I floor the pedal.

No CEL codes

The ignition timing advance is 10 degrees during idle ( must be
between 11 and 13 according to the honda diagnostics unit).

The spark plugs are blackened (sooty, so rich mixture)

The o2 sensor is shifting between .1 and .89 volts, but quickly enough
or not - I dont know..

The car revs smoothly, too smoothly than it ever did earlier in fact
(maybe sign of retarded timing)

I think the exhaust is heating up a lot more than usual (again sign of
retarded timing?)

Drives okay for around first 15 minutes, then acceleration and
response declines drastically as I drive longer, mileage also suffers.

What could be wrong??

thanks,

es

 

What engine is this? Are you 100% sure valves are OK now?

The L4 engine spec is 12°BTDC +/-2° so it's close.

Is the engine getting up to full operating temp?... maybe think about
changing thermostat anyway?? I believe your car still has separate temp
gauge and ECT sensors so the next thing I'd check is the ECT sensor for
resistance when engine is hot. Other than that it could be a sensor
problem someplace else - TDC, CYP, throttle position, MAP, etc. Start by
checking harnesses and connectors.

Have you checked that the MIL lamp is working at ignition on? The fact
that you're not getting a MIL when the thing is so obviously out of whack
could also mean the ECM is bad.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Has the air filter collapsed and is getting sucked into the 'out' port
or is water spray getting sucked into the air intake?
Can you inspect the filter after a run where the problem arises
and maybe remove it and try without for a very short run (1/2 mile)?

 

Hi,

The valves were adjusted too tightly, I am pretty much sure some of
them were burnt to an extent before I set them back to specs.. So do
the symptoms below seem to gel with that, burnt valves and compression
loss?

Thanks

es

 

The air filter looks fine to me, though I really have not checked it
in the middle of the problem. Where does the water spray you are
talking about come from??

Also, all the connectors seem fine to me and I had the car hooked up
to a diagnostic unit to see if any codes were set, and did not find
any, so I presume the light is working.

 

With a burnt valve(s) I'd think you'd be able to feel some other symptoms,
like severe chugging at transition from coasting to light acceleration.
I'd also expect a check engine on the MIL if they were that bad. Have you
tried turning the engine over by hand, as one does during a valve check,
with a wrench on the crank pulley bolt to see if you hear the valves
hissing and low resistance on the compression strokes?... crude form of
compression check which you might also want to do more thoroughly.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

From outside! Maybe thrown up by driving through a stream or
splashing through puddles.

Have you seen the light illuminate? The filament could have failed.

Have you polished the inside of the distributor cap? Could be damp.

 

Hi,

This sounds terrible, but I tried turning the crank yesterday and I am
hearing fairly audible hiss on cylinders 1 and 3.. I am gonna get a
compression check done tommorrow, seems like its gonna be bad news.

I dont notice severe chugging but it is noticeable, even if i floor the gas,
the car does not respond, then tries, gives up, tries gives up...

Talked to the service manager today, and he is trying to escape from fixing
the problem by saying that it is normal for a 70k miles car. These fellows
are really bad.
What can I do if they dont take responsibility??

Also, how hard is it gonna be to change the valves? Sounds like a time
consuming task...

In case I do have damage to the car, will it be just the valves or would the
exhaust and intake manifolds also take some wear? If so, should I change the
head?

Damn it, this sounds bad.

Ramswaroop

me??

 

Well you *will* always hear *some* hiss but along with the back pressure of
the valves sealing. IOW the air will escape slowly with the compression -
I guess you've compared with the "feel" of the compression stroke on the
other cylinders.

Was it them who set the valves too tight in the first place? Is this a
Honda dealer? Only recourse I can think of would be if it fails an
emissions check... then it *could* be a warranty issue.

New valves almost inevitably and it depends onhow bad the valve seats are
burnt, whether they can be reground or have to be replaced - a new head
might be a better option given the $$ involved. If that service place
can't set the valve clearances right in the first place, unlikely I'd trust
them with that kind of work.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

No, the air filter looks fine to me.

No I have not tried polishing the distributor cap, but the engine (and
the distibutor) is getting so hot that I cannot imagine any moisture
anywhere close to the cap..

Did not check the bulb, but as I said, I hooked it up to a diagnostic
unit to see if any codes were set(the bulb lights up only when a code
is set right?), no codes have been stored by the ECU.

I think I am losing compression on a couple of cylinders and am
planning to get a leakdown test done. What would be acceptable figures
on this car?

Thanks

rao

 

Hi,
I had a leak down test done today and the results are 8 % on two of
the cylinders and 12% on the other two. They say that the rings have
seized up due to carbon and that is what is causing the leak.

What do I do now?

Also, yes tthey are the ones who set teh valves tight in the firsst
place, but today I went to them and saw that their .012 gauge is
totally worn out, its more like .010, so no wonder they set them
tight. But now what tehy are claiming is that I set them too lose and
that is what is messing up everything.

Thanks

Es

 

Hi,

In addition to all the problems mentioned above, I noticed something
strange with the exhaust gases on my car, when I ask someone to stamp
on the gas and the rpm goes up, and I feel the exhaust stream using my
hand, the exhaust gases volume(flow) reduces and becomes hotter, at
really high rpms, I almost cannot feel the exhaust flow, only the
heat.. What is happening???

Thanks,

es

 

============================

Your cat must have a bunch of rust / carbon chunks sitting in the inlet
side. When you punch the gas, it all flies up and blocks the intake of
the cat, which is similar to a segment of screen door (as far as passing
air goes)

Remove the cat and dump out all the junk, or somehow vacuum it from the
exhaust manifold end.

Maybe the dealer blew the carbon crud down there, instead of being
careful to REMOVE it.

'curly'

==============

 

I guess it wouldn't do any harm to use one of the fuel additives which is
supposed to clean valves and combustion chamber - nothing to lose. Give it
a longish drive with the engine in the sweet spot where it still feels like
it's working OK and allow a couple of heat soaks in between.

They don't even have a metric feeler gauge and they are servicing
imports??<shrug>

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

This is getting beyond my personal experience so guessing... but it sounds
like an exhaust system restriction of some kind, possibly the catalytic
converter as Curly suggests. I don't recall hearing anything about EGR
cleaning though??... or maybe even an induction system restriction. Have
you checked the resonator box and intake for obstructions? Check the
intake tube, from air cleaner to manifold, for collapsing when you blip the
throttle - IME it may contract just very slightly if you open the throttle
quickly. We still don't know which engine this is.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

The engine is a F23A1 4 cylinder 2.3 litres.

I am already running techron concentrate and took it out on a 60 mile
drive yesterday. Shall do that again today, but do not know if it is
helping..

I had a heart attack when I saw how worn the gauges were. The worst
mistake I have done with my car is to have them set the valves.

The intake side seems ok to me, no signs of collapse or choking.

Damn the fellas, just to accuse me that I had set the valves
incorrectly, they seem to have loosened a couple of valves, the engine
seems to be rougher now..

In addition to everything else, Shall try to check if the valves are
to specs again this weekend.

So why is the exhaust choking up? CAT seems like a solid possibility
to me. The car has a warranty on the CAT till 80k miles, and I am
covered, so I am getting it checked out tommorrow.(at another
dealer..)

 

Probably a good idea, just in case there's any crud which was on the seats
which has been cleaned off. I've found the F23A1/4(don't recall which I
have) engines a PITA to set the valves on. Once I get the clearance right
and apply a bit of torque to take up any lash in the threads, when I apply
the final torque, the locknut often seems to turn the adjuster a touch and
therefore tighten the clearance a bit. It varies by individual valve so
cannot be compensated for consistently. I hate the job and blame the cheap
locknuts/adjusters with no chamfer on the nuts which are on the F23A1/4.
By comparison, my Integra DOHC engine is much easier to do.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Hi,

In addition to the techron concentrate, is there anything else I can
do to try and loosen up the rings? Maybe pour something through the
spark plug holes, let it sit overnight and clean it up by cranking the
engine without the plugs in them? Maybe I might haveto change the
engine oil after that, but if it frees up the rings its worth it..

Any suggestions?

 

marvel mystery oil?

 

Can you describe in more detail how to go about using it? How much quantity
to use, how long to let it sit soaking, how to remove most of it before
cranking up? Any damage possibility to the o2 sensors, CAT ?