accord wheel alignment readout

just got a wheel alignment done on my 99 accord (64K miles) at midas...
looking at the readout i don't see a whole lot of adjustments made
(for eg caster L/R, sai, curve toein etc)..
some of the numbers seem worse than before (camber L/R front/rear).
i guess only toe looks to be improved..
my questions to the folks in-the-know-
1. what do you make of the read outs..
2. does it indicate the best possible adjustments..
3. finally are the alignment results objective or subjective.. if i
took the same car to a different shop would i get similar results..
4. now that the car is aligned, if i were to take it to another shop
would they come back saying nothing needs to be done?
too many questions, hope someone can shed some light on this..
thanks!

front
measured database adjusted
caster left 2.82 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.86
right 2.11 1.80/2.80/3.80 2.13
sai left 7.96 n/a 7.96
right 6.44 n/a 6.44
curve left 0.3 n/a 0.3
toein right 0.5 n/a 0.5
camber left -0.1 -1.00/0.00/1.00 -0.25
angle right 0.84 -1.00/0.00/1.00 0.92
partial left -0.09 n/a 0.01
toe right 0.01 n/a 0.00
total toe -0.08 -0.04/0.00/0.04 0.01
set-back -0.11 n/a -0.09

rear
camber left -1.22 -1.50/0.50/1.50 -1.35
angle right 0.33 -1.50/0.50/1.50 0.39
partial left -0.06 n/a 0.01
toe right -0.23 n/a 0.00
totaltoe -0.29 -0.00/0.01/0.03 0.01
thrust angle 0.29 n/a 0.01
set-back -0.12 n/a -0.15

 

Where are you going with these questions, they got it almost perfect, some
specs are not adjustable.

 

I am trying to understand what was done?
I don't enough to say if they got it right or not..
Just comparing the before and after readings with the database, I
can't see improvements except for the Toe..
Front:
Caster: worse than before (not close to the mid-point before or after)
SAI:no change (no reference)
Curve toein: no change (no reference)
Camber: worse than before (the right reading is even closer to
the top of the range after than before)
Toe: improved
Setback: ??
Rear:
Caster: worse than before (left reading closer to the top of the
range after than before)
Toe: improved
Thrust angle & setback: ??
So in summary only the toe has been improved.. I had wear on the
outside of one tire, and the inside of another.. Does this explain it?
I am trying to understand what was improved and how?

 

The n/a's are just specs, not adjustable, only the toe was way out. the
difference between the lt and rt camber, ft and rear is a little too high.
could cause a pull.

 

The only adjustment on the '99 Accord is toe. If you want to adjust
anything else, you need to install aftermarket suspension parts.

Also, as the bushings begin to sag from age, camber tends to increase.

 

Or replace bent parts or bend something.

In terms of tire wear toe is everything. Caster and camber will not
do much to tire wear at all unless wildly off. Caster balance will
have an effect on pull. If wildly wrong on both sides caster will
change handling characteristics. Camber hardly makes a rat's ass with
radial tires even if wildly wrong -- although this varies with tire
profile etc. Wear on one side of the tire only that is blamed on
camber usually proves to be toe wear. Most cases of pull blamed on
alignment prove to be tire issues. The alignment shop I sublet to
routinely reports that the car pulled when they finished their
alignment and road-tested it. They then move the tires around to
prove that the pull moves with the tires and is not alignment-induced.

Don
www.donsautomotive.com

















Don
www.donsautomotive.com

 

Toe does cause excessive wear, and is usually accompanied by feathering of
the tread in the affected area. But don't discount the effect of negative
camber, especially on a strut/lower-BJ system. I've seen plenty of non-
lowered Hondas only 0.5 degrees out of spec with bald inner tread and 6/32's
of outer tread.

J

 

it's true about tires affecting pull - i've had that experience
recently. bought a cheap set of tires a while back and am now
regretting it for exactly those reasons.

otoh, it's also [unfortunately] true that many alignment shops are not
very good at their job. one place i used to live near, i'd routinely
have to go back 2 or 3 times to make sure rear alignment on a civic was
done right. "it's because you've got a bent wheel" doesn't cut it on a
rim that's straight to within 0.2mm. finally, when it becomes clear
that the customer won't accept b.s., they'll have the old dog do the job
and magically, it gets done right...

 

if the camber on the left wheel is -ve and on the right wheel is +ve
(and close to the top of the range) then the left wheel is leaning on
its outer edge as is the right wheel..
how can this not be a cause of the tire wearing off unevenly?
in my case both the front and rear left and right tires has this..
as regards caster, it went 2.82->2.86 on the left and
2.11->2.13 on the right.. maybe it helps but its not a big
adjustment considering the range 1.80/2.80/3.80...
btw, the reason i went to the alignment shop is i got new tires
installed. the tire shop looked at my old tires and saw wear on the
outside of the front/rear left.. only the rear right looked ok..
i wish i had some snaps of those, but oh well...
bottomline: i would like to go back to midas and ask them to
look at the caster.. but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..

 

blade wrote:

really? what other cars have adjustable caster and camber from factory?
and why would they need it?

 

Is this a loaded question?
Some older Honda's did have a ft caster adjustment. Subaru's have ft camber
(along with many other cars) Mazda Miata's and some Chryslers (as well as
others) have rear camber with the toe. The Chryslers cam be a challenge, for
you have to move a toe bolt and camber bolt and caress both numbers into
specs. I enjoyed the challenge.


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

 

ok, but that's not in the same way that toe is adjustable. and maybe i
should have said "what other MODERN cars... ". things like camber are
designed to be set at the factory and not monkeyed with again. the
logic is that any post-factory misalignment is an impact damage issue
and if it's not bent suspension componentry, it's the frame which needs
to be re-set to bring it back into spec. from an engineering
perspective, and assuming access to modern frame alignment gear, that's
a much more "correct" way of doing it, and one that manufacturers
capable of building decent and consistently well-aligned frames are
entitled to take advantage of.

 

Agreed! A alignment is a fine tune of the final components; seen many new
cars come with alignment out from the factory. (Mazda's come to mind)
Some cars you can get a few degrees out of a non adjustable point, And I'll
try it if necessary. Most people barely want an alignment looked at; they
sure don't want to take it to a frame/body shop.
We had an Eagle come into the Firestone I worked at from a local dealership;
at trade-in. This car had barely 60k on it but it was drove hard and put
away wet. So much wrong with it. I told them (after getting the numbers on a
alignment check) it needed to go to a body shop. They insisted we "just get
it to drive straight." We put adjustable cams on both ft tires; moved one
side in, the other out; still couldn't get it to drive correctly. They
eventually gave it to the "old timer" who knew (somewhat) what to move to
get it to drive decent. We should have never touched it and the dealer is
now out of business.

Steve

 

its interesting that you reference the
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm URL in your signature..
this was one of the sites i read to understand about alignment..
and i expected camber to be the reason why the outside of one tire
and inside of another were worn out..
now if the camber is not adjustable in many front wheel drive cars
then what is one to do?
in my case the camber on the front and rear is worse after the
alignment.. so they changed the camber.. how i dont know..
but it has changed for the worse..
my concern is how to make it better.. coz it cud be my imagination
but i am seeing a ring appear on the outside of my brand new
tires already..
ps: i am new to this whole aligmnent thing.. i wouldnt know which
other cars have this parameter adjustable and which dont.. why
some have it and why some dont.. but if you have the wheel tilted
inside or the outside hence favoring one edge or the other as
opposed to being vertical to the ground, my layman mind
would think that you would want that to be adjustable..

 

What kind of car do you have, and do you have the alignment printout?


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

 

its a 99 honda accord LX 4-cyl.
i have the printout.. will try to scan it tommorow...
in the meanwhile the alignment readings are
posted at the beginning of the thread.
thanks.

 

printout @ http://www.mediamax.com/qzmp8/Hosted/midaswhlalign.PDF
thanks.

 

Sorry, I didn't note you are the original poster!

Anyway, What I see is a cross camber problem in both front and rear, as if
the car took a slide sideways.
Optimum camber for front is 0 degrees, with a + or - of one degree, the rear
a -.5 with a plus or minus of 1 degree also.
LF is: OK RF is: .84, within limits but extreme
LR is: 1.22, within limits but extreme RR is: OK

Now, unless something is worn, there is no real way they moved it, unless it
was sloppy work. Sometimes the numbers do bounce around a bit, but I
wouldn't hold the shop responsible, although I am surprised they didn't
bring it to your attention that there is a adjustment problem.

Now the best fix is to see what is bent or worn; A cheaper route is to put
an adjustable camber kit on the RF and LR. You may think about putting it on
all 4 corners
Here are two examples of the parts needed; I'd check with a Napa
http://www.spcperformance.com/PerfPartSect/PerfPart_67125_165.html (a
front camber ball joint Adj)
http://www.spcperformance.com/PerfPartSect/PerfPart_67090.html (a rear
camber control arm Adj)

I hope this helps
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist