Alignment Expert Needed: Axle offset?

Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New Tires
and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not track the
front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the car from the
rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop says the axle
offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So, they say nothing is
wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi. (Michlens). I replaced
them with Traction T/A's and they were horrible; poor wear, noisy (I missed
rotating untill about 12,000miles and by then they were ruined). I believe
part of the problem was this axle offset issue. How it came about is a
mystery. Prior to replacing these tires, I tried to get the alignment
issues fixed at a Honda dealer, but they seemed more intersted in selling
new tires and cabin filters. So, they were little help. How do I get this
axle offset checked and corrected ?

 

take it to a different shop that knows what they're doing- my experience
is that you may need to try several different places. all 4 wheels on
the honda are adjustable, so the thrust angle can be dialed in exactly.
or they should tell you if the frame is bent.

 

That was my thinking; but, my problem is finding a shop that knows what
they're doing. At first, I thought taking it to a dealer would have been
sufficient; but, I was quickly turned off by their indifference. So.....
Thanks for the reply.
TomC

 

i was looking at new cars one time, and one brand new vehicle was
pulling hard to the right - damaged in transit or factory set wrong.
the sales dude was so indifferent, he tried to tell me it was a safety
feature! amazing. needless to say, i took my business elsewhere.

here in the bay area, i've tried 4 different shops, and each one sucks.
but the last place had a guarantee, so i kept taking it back pointing
out the tire wear [i used paint strips] and the guarantee they gave me.
i got it escalated to the manager, and finally got the senior tech on
it. the manager figured out i'd just keep on coming back if they didn't
do something and were already losing money. objectionable process, but
it worked.

 

The "dog-tracking" you describe is normal.

So long as the alignment shop made sure the front wheels were properly
aligned to the centerline bisecting the rear wheels, it is acceptable to
have some dog-tracking, and perfectly acceptable for the rear axle
centerline to diverge from the body's centerline.

Both sides of the rear end of your car are adjustable for toe. Ideally
you'd adjust the toe on both sides so the rear axle centerline coincides
with the car's body's centerline. But it's common practice for alignment
techs to only adjust one side if the rear toe isn't far out, resulting
isn some harmless dog-tracking.

Having said the above, it is NOT acceptable to have LOTS of dog-
tracking though. And it is NOT sufficient to simply point to the numbers
the machine gives you and say the car's been set up properly. Sometimes
a bit of fudge and squish is necessary to do the job right, and that's
where skill comes in rather than simple menu-following.

The tire wear you eperienced is not necessarily due to any centerline
issue. It can also be due to bad mounting, poor quality tires, worn
shocks and a host of other suspension problems. Most likely the tires
were badly mounted to begin with.

Your factory tires were mounted by expertly-trained people. Your
replacements were not.

I have found that most tires are mounted very badly. Tire shops have
badly trained personnel who have no clue how to get the tires to spin
true before balancing. They just slap them on the wheels (using the
wrong lube while they're at it) and load the wheel up with weights. The
tires may end up feeling smooth to you, but with each revolution they
are scrubbing themselves unevenly against the pavement, eventually
wrecking the tread.

Does the car track straight, hands off the wheel? Does it follow the
road crown equally both sides of the crown? Then you're likely fine as
far as alignment goes. If the tires are that bad, you need to replace
them, and have the job done by a competent shop. Those are hard to find.

 

I know where your coming from....In the last two years I've gone thru $1200
worth of tires and a couple hundred for alignments..I'm thinking it's time
to rid myself of this beast. Nice car but few can fix 'em.
TomC

 

If you think any dogtracking is acceptable, then you've said more than I
need to know from you!
TomC

 

completely disagree!!!

yes, it's common for it to happen because a lot of these guys don't know
what's up, but it's not correct and /completely unacceptable/!!!

here's the reason why: the very last time i had my civic done, i was
informed that they'd adjusted it as good as they could make it, but
since the rear wasn't adjustable, there was nothing more they could do.
the car has some crash damage evident, so initially, they weren't even
prepared to look any further. however, i explained that the rear /was/
adjustable, and showed them where and how it was done. now, here's the
kicker - the data book they were using /did/ say the rear wasn't
adjustable!!! just like if you go to a parts store and look in the bulb
book, the bulb number listed for the civic rear license plate is
incorrect. basically, once a mistake gets into the data system, it gets
"preserved" and passed from generation to generation. the only sure way
to get this stuff fixed is to go armed with the factory honda workshop
manual with the relevant page bookmarked.

honda handling is /particularly/ sensitive to rear toe, so it's
essential this be done right. again, front and rear toe /is/
adjustable, therefore thrust is adjustable and should be set straight as
an arrow. only a bent frame prevents this being achieved, and then,
only when the frame is bent beyond adjustment limits.

 

chill. tegger's a good guy and hosts the unofficial honda, a fantastic
resource. check them out at tegger.com. he can be a little too
trusting when it comes to suspension advice from his mechanic, but we
can't all be experts in everything.

 

FWIW, my best alignment experience has been with a collision repair
shop that operates their own alignment system, complete with frame
straightening equipment. They claim few cars are really straight from
the factory but nearly all are easily put square.

 

1,2,3...Ok; I'm calm now. It's just that this "close enough" attitude is
getting really bad; and, pervasive. I run into it in the building trades,
auto industries, health care, manufacturing, and etc.. and it's really
getting old.
TomC

 

Point is, it's not the body that matters, it's the suspension. Sure, it
"should" be perfect, but usually isn't. And nobody ever knows, or suffers
for that. Did you know that some cars came from the factory with rear toe
adjustment on only one side?

What I was trying to say is that your tire issues are almost 100% certain
to be simple ham-fisted tire installation rather than the dog-tracking that
has you all in tizzy.

I suggest here that it is very likely you'll end up having the suspension
set up six ways to Sunday by everybody and his dog, and it will make no
difference whatsoever.

Find a competent tire shop.

 

Let me see if I understand this correctly. My Honda Accord V6 is probably
capable of sustained speeds in excess of 120mph and came equipped with
speed rated tires to 140mph. but, according to you it would be perfectly
safe to operate this car in those ranges with dog-tracking; e.g.going down
the road sideways. UNBELIVABLE! You say nobody suffers for it...fatal
accident victims don't talk. Reread the original post! The car oversteers
to the right. Under the right (wrong) conditions the rear end of this car
could prematurely spin out.
If your attitude is indicative of the prevaling attitude in the industry
it's no wonder that I can't get a simple alignment done properly.
Competency of a tire shop can only be judged by what they've done for the
customer and, unfortunately, in this case; not much.
TomC

 

Thanks for the advice. That may be my last best hope.
TomC

 

Dog tracking is perfectly OK -- within limits, as I said way back. Some
perfectly acceptable cars come that way from the factory.

You've never have said how bad the dog-tracking was. A quarter inch? A
quarter of a tire's width? Is it the same in/out on both sides? How are
you measuring it?

Dog-tracking that results from a collision is a different sort of animal
though. It may not be possible to properly align a car with a bent
unibody. But your alignment shop will be able to tell you if this is the
case for your car.

It doesn't. At least not because the body is slightly askew above the
suspension. an angled thrust centerline is NOT the same as "oversteer".

If your car pulls to the right, then you either have a bad tire, a poor
alignment job, or the steering wheel is off-center. That's why I asked
you whether or not the car pulled equally towards the "down" side of the
road crown from either side with your hands off the wheel.

You don't have to take my word for any of this. Try posting your
original message to the Usenet group rec.autos.tech . This group has at
least six actual working technicians (unlike here) with vast experience.
I don't believe you'll hear anything different from what I've said so
far.

 

its really hard to install a tire wrong on a "j" rim - the
circumferential humps hold the beads in position. crap tires and crap
balancing are much more common.

but it does. before i finally got my civic right, i took it to 4
different shops and got 6 alignments. each one was scarily different.

 

you got real lucky there - i've yet to find a place that good in my neck
of the woods.

 

If you study a problematic tire after it's mounted, you'll see the bead is
sometimes not seated evenly all around, even on a JJ rim. Some portions of
the bead will be seated more deeply than others. This is partially what
causes the out-of-round and "wobble" so many tires have. Tire shops tend to
use the wrong lube (often something like dish detergent) instead of proper
tire lube, so there's uneven friction when the bead is seated.

And next time you watch tire monkeys at work, see how few of them check for
trueness after they seat the bead. And see how even fewer bother with those
colored dots for high point and light point. Get those in the wrong place
and you can have a tire that balances perfectly on the machine, but feels
like shit when you drive.

But it wouldn't make much difference to the tires, is what I'm saying.

 

there's two factors here - cheap tires and the slime they use when
fitting. basically, i've never seen anyone /not/ use that slime stuff
because it's pretty much essential to getting the initial seal necessary
to inflate the tires past the humps. cheap tires are a whole different
ball of wax - and some of them are truly appalling. colored dots won't
improve that situation, and they don't affect how balance shifts when
cheap tires wear unevenly.

it makes a huge difference to wear [obviously]. but frankly, i don't
care about wear anywhere /near/ as much as i do about handling, and to
handle "just so" means it's got to be done right. it's easy enough to
not bother with it just pottering about town or a freeway commute, but
on the twisties, at the adhesion limit, it's crucial.

 

Here's the trick; find a shop qualified to fix an Acura NSX. Only a
very few shops in my area are. Your insurance company will know these
shops as should any Acura dealer.