Antifreeze issue

My car has enough Antifreeze (green one) in the radiator but little above
the min. mark in the tank. I read Elle's post and thought to top it up and
contacted Honda dealer to get the Antifreeze. They said they no longer sale
the green one anymore. They sell the blue one. I asked whether I need to
flush out the old one to put in a blue one, the guy said "sure!" but after a
quasi long pause!! So, my question to this trusted group of mine is:

1) Is it okay to use a generic green antifreeze from Pennzoil? (It's about
half the price!)
2) Is it okay to mix it with the old green antifreeze? Does it have any
break down period like the way engine oil does?
3) Can I use the double distilled, deionozed water that is available in
laboratories?

Thanks
SB

 

Quick response from a 1991 Civic (171k miles) (original) owner:

What I've seen generally is mixing different anti-freezes, even if they're
the same color, is a bad idea. Definitely do not mix a conventional Prestone
green with the OEM coolant, which may be the blue stuff at the dealer's.
Definitely do not mix orange with green, etc. (Of course the color coding
implies a particular, certain chemistry, hence the advice not to mix.)

Ideally, do a flush (which is just a drain, fill, drain, etc. a few times).
You can probably get away with just a full drain (including engine block
drain plug removed), but it doesn't take but a few minutes to go the next
step and fill and drain a few more times. I just used hose water for this.
Of note is that, when I measured all the coolant in my Civic's cooling
system this past April, what came out matched exactly the capacities listed
in the manual. The point being that a drain, fill, drain etc. should get
darn near everything old out.

The drain and fill also removes a lot of sand-like sediment that can impede
proper cooling or maybe bind mechanical parts. Around a 1/4 teaspoon of this
came out when I did a drain and fill after about 2.5 years this past April.
That may not seem like much, but ISTM some of the passages and the water
pump clearances are small and could cause the aforementioned problems.
(Someone else might elaborate.)

Generic anti-freezes are said to cause water pump (bearing?) problems. I
can't say for sure, but I know I had water pump problems after using the
green stuff. Lots of folks have testified here to the same. Three years ago
I switched to the orange (after a very thorough flush). I have had no water
pump problems since. The water pump is currently 4 years and 60k miles old,
having lasted much longer than the previous one (or two). I'll replace it in
two more years, when I do the timing belt. I won't be hitting the mileage
spec.

About anti-freeze shelf life, from Havoline's orange Dex Cool site: "The
primary limiting factor in the shelf life of a coolant is silicate
instability. Since silicate will eventually polymerize to silicate gel, all
traditional coolants have a shelf life of about 18 months. Havoline Extended
Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant DEX-COOL is silicate-free and therefore can be
stored for at least 8 years without a problem, provided the integrity of the
container is maintained."
http://www.havoline.com/products/na/antifreeze_01_tech.html

For distilled water, I just buy a gallon marked "distilled" at the grocery
store. Dunno about the lab water. The grocery gallon is cheap and common
enough.

Suggestion: List the year, miles, and model of Honda you own if you have
more technical questions.

 

First, and most important, do not use any silicone/silicate
formulation. If you have it in there now, you are ruining the water
pump seals. Flush like crazy and fill with genuine Honda coolant.
Expensive? You just won't believe what it costs to replace the pump.
The photomicrographs of the damaged seals show erosion caused by the
silicate. Silicate is simply sand.

You might be okay with an OAT type coolant like Dex-Cool, but it has
it's own set of problems like sludge formation if the radiator gets air
in it. So, overfill the bottle like Texaco recommends. And check the
level often. It will give you long life, but so does Honda's blue
formulation.

I have a minor in chemistry. The lab water is first distilled like the
bottled variety, and is then stripped of the ions that remain. This is
produced by a great big, stainless-steel expresso-looking machine,
right? But, such pure water becomes a decent solvent, and tries to
dissolve whatever it's in contact with, much more than regular water.
"Nature abhors a vacuum." So, if it were me, I would actually add a
cup or two of tap water depending on your local water hardness.

 

My car is 2000 Honda Civic Value pack (kind of in between a basic and a LX
regarding the trim, but no difference in engine) with 69000 miles on it. The
car is Canadian make.
Mostly, I put in highway miles from C'ville to Philadelphia.(520 miles
roundtrip)
Thanks a lot for the feedback.
I will do a flush and fill up with Honda Genuine Antifreeze. I am kind of
skeptical about adding a cup or two of tap water to that water though as
suggested by jmattis. The slightly better solvent property of the deionized
double distilled water compared to distilled water is almost a moot point
considering its usage as a mixture to the antifreeze. I understand that it
probably is a overkill. I might use it because its easy availability to
me

SB

 

Honda Genuine is PREMIXED!!!! DO NOT add ANY kind of water to Honda
Genuine antifreeze!

And make certain you pull the block drain. Do not neglect this step. There
is a quart of fluid in the block that is not drained unless you remove the
block drain.

 

You can get Honda premixed or not. They sell both.

 

Not around here (Peoples' Republic of Kanada). Premix or nothing.

Your Mileage, as the old saw goes, May Vary. Ask your dealer.

 

hell no. you CAN use the orange dexcool 100k mile stuff in the silver
jug. either way, you should drain, run regular water thru for 10mins,
drain again. THEN add a 50/50 coolant mix.

some peeps here may disagree with the orange dexcool recommendation and
suggest only honda coolant. your call. ive used the orange dex in a
variety of aluminum japanese gas engines over the past 15 years, and
have had NO problems whatsoever with anything.

i wouldnt, no.

i think that would even be better than regular distilled water!

 

we forgot to add to make sure the heater lever is full "on" for the
whole procedure. that gets ALL the bad stuff out/good stuff in.

 

but if the block drain is siezed or too much of a PITA, dont sweat it.
the "flush" will take care of it.

 

No it won't. All it will do is dilute the new stuff.

A 19mm socket, a 3ft breaker bar and a bit of grunting will break it loose.
No prob.

 

It's chock full of silicates, too, I'll bet! It's *so* economical to save
$10 on antifreeze and spend $500 on a head gasket.

70/30 antifreeze/water if you refuse to open the block drain.

I'm one of those. Mixing long-life antifreezes destroys the long-life
corrosion protection extenders. It dumbs you back down to the default two
years.

Not that you've ever paid any attention to.

Makes no difference whatsoever. So long as mineral solids are absent, any
kind of water is fine. But not with Honda Genuine Premix.

 

Yes. I was going on the bold assumption sb4t was using his/her owner's
manual's instructions.

 

Silicates are not sand, although they're made from sand. Supposedly
only a small fraction might turn into abrasive crystals when they
inevitably come out of suspension. The main problem with silicates
are that they're unstable and form a gel that can plug up small
radiator passages. The shelf life of a typical silicated coolant is
18 months.

Silicone is generally not a problem. It may be a problem if
silicate/silicone ends up in the combustion chamber and is burned
at high temperature into an abrasive. However - a coolant leak into
the combustion chamber is a more serious problem.

 

The conventional yellow Prestone is no longer being sold. What they
primarily sell now is "Prestone All Makes", which is a organic-acid
only coolant. No phosphates, silicates, borates, etc. The ingredient
label looks suspiciously like Prestone Dex-Cool.

If I were going to do a full change and Prestone All Makes was the
only stuff I could get, I would have no problem using it. When my
'95 Integra GS-R blew a coolant hose, I filled it with Havoline
Dex-Cool and it worked fine for 18K miles. The plastic radiator
tank finally cracked, but I heard that wasn't unusual at 130K miles.

 

i wouldn't. on the one hand, the water is a dilutant for a big hairy
dose of some pre-mixed goop, the exact compositon of which is going to
be debatable. on the other, the ionized water is an electrolyte. any
environment where there are differing materials in the presence of an
electrolyte and the ability to conduct any galvanic currents, you get
corrosion. /any/ ion content can accelerate that process, not diminish it.

 

Just want to be honest and say the flush (really, drain and fill several
times) I did a few years ago and a few years before that was with the engine
block drain bolt intact. That bolt can be hard to remove, though this past
year, I got it off easily. Others have reported that they don't bother to
remove it and have been fine, as far as can be told. Which is why I haven't
lost sleep over not removing it in the past.

A dilution calculation is appropriate, though, as Tegger has mentioned,
since not removing the bolt will result in a certain amount of residual
water/coolant remaining in the block when one does the final fill.

There's a fair amount of variation in how much the engine blocks of
different Hondas hold, IIRC. To be totally scientific, measure what comes
out of the petcock at the bottom of the radiator, and use this with the
manual to figure out what's sitting in the block, undrained.

Just an amateur but amateurs' experiences do add to the anecdotal data base,
IMO.

 

Hmm. I happened upon this thread, got rather concerned, and now feel a
little better

I recently allowed a Firestone center to do a radiator flush. They filled
it with some generic green-yellow coolant which is merely referred to on
the bill as "pre-mix".

At first I feared they had used an old Prestone-like silicate formula ...
but in view of the above perhaps it isn't. On Monday I'm going to call
them and see if I can ascertain exactly what they did put in my radiator.

 

i definately would. chances are, theyre using the lowest-priced bulk
stuff they can get. id guess thatd be regular prestone, with all them
phosphates that are bad for hondas.

 

I called Firestone. They tell me the green antifreeze they install is
DexCool. As I understand this is organic-acid based.