axle R&R on '86 Honda Accord

Hi. I'm caught in the old bind of being too poor to get a car that doesn't
need constant repairs, because my only car needs constant repairs, thus
keeping me too poor to get a car that... you know.

Anyway, my '86 Honda Accord DX (manual trans, 155000 miles) might get me
another year's service if I can just get the CV joints fixed, which I will
be attempting this week. Got rebuilt axles on eBay (great price, no core
bother, but always a gamble, of course) and plan to put them in myself in a
few days, and wanted to ask if anyone has specific advice on the job.

I've read all the horror stories on the web, most to do with rust-welded
spindle nuts, which I don't think will be a factor as I don't live in the
mid-west (the 'rust belt'). The job is fairly simple, composed of the steps:

.. loosen wheel lug nuts, raise on jack stands, remove spindle nut.
I plan to use WD-40 or some other penetrating oil on the spindle
nut to help, locking the wheel with a pry bar while using a breaker
bar (with pipe extension if necessary) to loosen the spindle nut,
but would appreciate any tips anyone has; (or if your own experience
tells you I shouldn't be attempting this, let me know too).

.. drain tranny oil. Only question I have here is that it takes a
square-drive
wrench - does anyone know offhand what the size is?

.. remove damper fork. Question: how difficult? There are 2 bolts - are
they likely to be seized or rusted together?

.. remove knuckle-to-lower arm castle nut, and separate with 2-arm gear
puller. Any problems/tips here I should be aware of?

.. pull knuckle outward, removing draveshaft outboard joint from knuckle
with a plastic hammer. Q: Can it be stuck to where it just won't come
out? If so, how best to get it out...

.. pry out the inboard driveshaft assembly with a screwdriver (forcing inner
set ring past inner groove in differential); Q: Does it always just 'pop
right out'? I'd hate to get stuck at this point!

On putting in the rebuilt axles, the only thing that worries me is getting
the inner driveshaft assembly, with its new set ring, to properly seat
within the differential. Has anyone experience special problems with this
task?

I guess what I'm looking for is a lot of people to say, Hey - it'll be a
breeze - you can do it! If I could afford to have my car towed, I would dive
right in and just do it, but I'm really on the edge right now, so just
maximizing my chances of getting these rebuilds in with as few problems as
possible

Any help/tips/sharing-of-experiences greatly appreciated.
-ed

 

Loosen spindle nut FIRST (wheels on the ground, tranny in first gear,
parking brake on). Chisel back the locking tab on the nut before loosening
the nut. If the shafts are original, you should be able to loosen it with
a 2 foot cheater pipe on your breaker bar. If some clown had the shafts
out before and used an impact wrench to put the spindle nut back on, it
may be over torqued. If that is the case, you will need a 5 foot cheater
pipe on your breaker bar. Remember... with a big enough lever and a sturdy
fulcrum, you too can move the Earth!

Loosen the nut so it is flush with the end of the shaft. Bang on it a bit
with a hammer (steel hammer) to get the shaft moving out of the hub a
little bit. Look close between bangs to see if the shaft is moving inward
toward the car. Now jack up the car and remove the wheels etc..

The square end of a socket extension fits nice and does the job. I forget
if it is the 3/8 inch or the 1/2 inch extension that fits.

No... NO.... N O ! ! ! ! DO NOT REMOVE THE FORK! Unless you are 100% sure
that the bolt which goes through the rubber bushing on the lower control
arm is NOT SEIZED... do not touch it! And I mean 100% sure! In North
America where it snows, that bolt will be seized. You don't want to twist
off the head of the bolt. The inner joint is always disassembled, and the
shaft (minus the needle bearings) is puzzled through the fork. It is a
little messy, and a pain in the ass, but it is MUCH easier (and CHEAPER)
than cutting out the lower control arms with a torch and buying new lower
control arms!

Cleanliness is next to godly. Be careful not to contaminate your inner
joint guts with dirt!

You will need to get two new inner joint large boot clamps before you
start the job. Maybe you were lucky and the CV joint rebuilder put an
extra clamp into the box for you!

If the car has been driven in the snow (where salt is used on the road),
the lower fork bolt WILL BE SEIZED. DO NOT TOUCH THE BOLT. SEE ABOVE.

Don't use the puller. Use a ball joint fork. BUT... BUT... only use ONE
TINE of the ball joint fork so that the rubber boot on the ball joint is
not damaged. Slip ONE TINE of the fork in between the control arm and the
knuckle (not the side closest to the brake rotor, but the other side which
is close to the engine). Loosen the castle nut, do not remove it yet.
Whack your pickle fork and it will pop the tapered ball joint stud out,
without damaging the rubber boot. Now remove the castle nut. If you don't
have a ball joint fork, a nice big, fat, rampy cold chisel will work just
as well in the same manner as above. Don't piss around with a puller.

See above re: now jack up the car. Use a regular steel hammer. It has more
weight behind it and the drive shaft steel is really tough. It takes a lot
of muscle and some real big time hammering to damage that steel. I've
whacked out those shafts and didn't even mark the steel!

If you have gotten this far, that will be a piece of cake. This is the
easy part! If your screwdriver has good "purchase" and good leverage
(moving the earth again!) it will POP!

A rag, a two by four, and your hammer will knock the suckers right in! Put
the rag between the rubber boot and the two by four then knock it in with
the hammer. You will feel it seat.


M.A. Stewart (don't email cf005... sorry...elm filter bounces all incoming
email!)

 

(M.A. Stewart) wrote in

It's 3/8". Probably have to hammer the square into the recess, otherwise it
won't go in far enough and will round off the hole.

That's interesting. I just replaced all the bushings (and I do mean all) in
the rear suspension of my '91 Integra. I live in Canada. All but five bolts
came off with hand-tools. One bolt needed to be cut off. The other four
succumbed to the violence of a machine shop's air wrench.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/old-bushings/

I'm going to be doing the fronts next year. I was just going to saw the
bolts and sleeves apart on either side of the bushing if they wouldn't come
loose.

Couldn't you just pry the inner joint away from the diff casing, or would
that damage something?

Or you can rent one of these puppies:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#balljoints



<snip>

Exactly where would you knock?

I'm starting to get a vibration on acceleration. I suspect my inner joints,
but my mechanic says they're still tight. (Still? After 252,800 miles?)

Next spring all the bushings are getting replaced, along with the tires
(which are worn), and the engine mounts. If none of that helps, I'm going
to replace the driveshafts.

 

I sheared the heads off two of the three bolts on my 91 Civic's left rear
lower control arm last year. Like M.A. Stewart implies, they were thoroughly
seized to the rubber bushings etc. This despite soaking in PB Blaster for a
day or more.

For my amateur set of tools, removing the remains of the two bolts that had
seized was incredibly laborious.

The archives have a lot on this.

My Civic was not garaged for the first five years of its life and was driven
in the Northern U.S. for ten years.

Has your Integra (year?) been garaged its whole life? I realize you drive in
Northern winters.

What kind of saw?

For the rears, seems like it's a torch cutting job, to me.

I won't do the other side of my Civic without a torch or equivalent
alternative.

 

I did that too. I used Kroil on one side, and PB on the other. Neither
seems to have made much difference.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/old-bushings/P7220908.JPG

I remember.

1991. 252,770 miles as of today.

I drive on Southern Ontario roads. These are just like Michigan or
Wisconsin. The car has never seen the inside of a garage.

It has, however, been drippy-rustproofed every year since new. This
accounts for the absolute lack of rust on any fastener except the two outer
ones on the lower arms, and the outer ones on the upper arms. Five of those
six gave me trouble. Nothing else did.

The problem is that the outer bolts on the front are just like the outer
ones on the rear, and I suspect they will not let go for me. They are smack
in the middle of the salt and water spray, which erases any attempt at
lubrication.

I was wondering about that. I don't know how hard the sleeves are, which
will be what makes the difference. There's room for a hacksaw in between
the flanges, but I don't know about a reciprocating saw (Sawzall). Would a
reciprocating saw risk too much damage to surrounding components?

The machine shop that cut the one bolt out for me appears to have used a
torch or a cutting wheel. They bent up the flange on the trailing arm and
knocked the nut off, so I had to replace bolt and nut with a 10.9 set.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/old-bushings/sawed-off-lower-arm.jpg

Once bitten, twice shy, eh?

 

This was the first time PB Blaster let me down.

What all is "drippy-rustproofed"?

It's tight. Worse, my hacksaw was not very effective. Have several new
blades handy. If you're not getting anywhere after an hour, I'd urge trying
something else.

Even if you can get it in where you want to cut, I'm not sure it will
actually cut easily through that steel.

I don't think I've seen a good solution for this yet.

I reckon. I put in a new damper and coil on that side (that was my ultimate
goal) and noticed no change in comfort. Plus I'm figuring only about five
more years with this car.

 

/never/ use a steel hammer on bearings!!!

well, the official way is to remove the fork. i luckily live in
california and can take the fork off my 89 no problems whatsoever. sure
makes life easier.

but this is all academic - the op only need pop the lower swivel to have
enough room to get the driveshaft out.

i completely disagree. what you're suggesting is both bad for the car
and dangerous for theoperator. use the proper tool. it's not expensive
and is /way/ safer. not to mention the cost savings of not fixing a
screwed up swivel or boot.

then you weren't hitting very hard and got real lucky. when those
things get damaged, they get /real/ expensive, not to mention very
inconvenient.

no!!! /never/ hammer them in. they should pop in with hand pressure.
if they don't, they're not seated right. sometimes a little grease on
the retaining ring helps keep it centered so it goes in first time.
hammering brinells the d/s bearings and the diff bearings. don't do it.

 

Anyone who owns a 1986 to 1989 Accord in Canada does not want to touch the
lower damper fork bolt to do a drive shaft job. The drive shaft inner
joint needs to be disassembled on the car and the shaft (minus the inboard
joint and needle bearing rollers) extracted through the fork and lower
control arm. The spider (and rubber boot) can be left on the shaft. The
spider can be easily puzzled through damper fork and control arm.

I don't follow you on the above question. His job was to replace the drive
shafts. With the damper fork attached to the lower control arm, the
complete drive shaft won't fit through the opening on the 1986/1989
Accords. He does not want to try and remove the fork from the control arm
so that he can remove/install the complete drive shaft. Halloween is
close. That is enough of a nightmare for anyone at this time of year. He
doesn't need the nightmare of a seized fork bolt and subsequent bushing
replacement. I don't think he has a nice fully equipped shop to work in.

On the end of the wood. Insert the splined part of the inner joint into
the diff.. Push hard. Knock it the rest of the way in with the hammer and
chunk of wood to seat it. Not much hammer force is needed. The wood is
bearing on the inner joint. The rag and the wood prevent damage to the
rubber boot.

I like to put a little bit wheel bearing grease on the spring clip so as
to suspend the clip concentrically to the center of the shaft (splined
stub of the inner joint). It gives even compression all the way around the
clip as it engages the side gear taper.

Lay out the details of the vibrations. We can only assume that it is not
the Beach Boys type of vibrations :->

My understanding is that when shafts are rebuilt, the inner joints aren't
even touched. No new spiders, snap rings, needle bearings etc.....nada.
New boots, yes... maybe a cleaning and new grease. Everything usually
looks good for them on the inner joints... so they don't do any work on
them.

Re the mount replacement. Check to see if the motor mounts have a torque
sequence for your car. They do for a 1986/1989 Accord.

Ahh... here's a challenge for you... replace the lower control arm
bushings with hand tools only!... no cheating, no friendly machine shop
with a press, no acetylene torch. Think "hone the holes to fit bushings".
Think brake cylinder hone... vernier caliper (or inside mike)...
micrometer... what's the best interference fit so I can whack those
suckers in with my $2.99 Kmart carpenter hammer!

Remember the machinist credo... "it is much easier to remove metal than it
is to put metal back on"


M.A. Stewart (please don't email cf005... elm spam filter bounces all
incoming email)

 

If by hacksaw... use quality blades.

Do you have any of the old sleeves around from your rear end job? Slap them
in a vice and saw away to see how they cut.

 

Not on the 1986/1989 Accord. The inner joint will not fit through fork! The
fork has to be removed (not advised if the bolt is siezed) or the inner
joint disassembled.

You can use the pickle fork succesfully on the 1986/1989 Accord without
any damage. You can also use a good cold chisel with the same good results.
The puller lugs won't hold well on the lower control arm. Plus you will have
to whack the control arm with a hammer when the puller can't be tightened
any more. Been there on a 3Gee. Don't piss with a puller.

No luck. Just common sense that worked.

In a nice garage with a hoist, sure hand pressure works. But in a lousy garage
and akward conditions, carefull common sense and lumber (soft wood) makes
things easier. I always use grease on the clip, the spline, and the groove
in the seal.

I rebuilt a transmission once. Talk about brinelling!

 

The California 86-89 Accord, 88-91 doesn't require a puller. I've done
several jobs using a 10, 12, 14, 17mm, one other socket and a 17mm
wrench. Either California is good to Hondas or what. Several tips
I might add:

Make sure the axel seats on the transmission or risk being stranded.
This is an easy procedure only learned form experience since no
hammering is allowed.

No fluid draining is required if jacked in a certain positon.

 

Where were all youse guys days ago when I originally posted?? I attempted
the job Friday morning and I think I might have succeeded if I had some of
this input before I dived in. Oh well - here's the scoop:

This talk about taking apart the inner joint sounds completely nuts! I'm
going by the official dealer's manual and Hayne's manual and several other
descriptions of the job found on the web, and they ALL say take out the
fork, separate the lower control arm from the ball joint, and pull the whole
half axle sucker out. I'm not in the rust belt (I'm in Bay Area, CA), so
I've never even heard of such a thing (talk about a pain!).

I had to use a 3' extension on a 1/2" drive socket wrench to break loose the
spindle nuts, but I was successful (that had me worried as I had read horror
stories).

I had no problems whatsover with the fork - came right out. Come to think of
it, I'm glad I did NOT read about the seized lower bolt scenerio - it would
have just upped the anxiety.

Got the blasted cotter pin out of the castle nut on the ball joint after
only 20 minutes of fussing. 30 seconds later had the castle nut off.

Then - A BRICK WALL. Could NOT get anywhere with getting the lower control
arm free of the ball joint. Had a good sized 2-arm gear puller (as
recommended by the manual and elsewhere): tried getting it as tight as I
could (got it VERY tight, in fact, with no luck), and hammering on the bolt
with puller on - all to no avail. Would have used a butane torch to heat
lower arm but couldn't find the nozzle at my place of work so had to just
call it quits and get it all reassembled for the sad drive back home. (Glad
I did not heat it now that I've researched this job more on the web).

Got home and spent HOURS on the web searching for into on getting the lower
control arm free from the ball joint, and found out a few things:

* input from a LOT of people saying the puller tools are all but worthless.
I agree completely.

* the one 'puller' tool most agreed can do the job is a lever-type ball end
remover, a picture of which can be seen here: http://tinyurl.com/9gfaf Of
course, I didn't have one, and have no $ to buy one, so it may as well not
exist for me.

* pounding on an axle end with a steel ANYTHING is complete idiotic
(pounding on a partially unscrewed spindle nut to loosen it probably OK, but
one should NEVER pound shaft (or joint housings) with hammer to get shaft
installed in transaxle.

* In reference to getting lower control arm free of ball joint: I came
across several references to the 'ratchet trick' but didn't know what it was
about. Finally tracked it down to one of the best postings I've ever come
across in forum 'how-to' discussion: http://tinyurl.com/72zmg There's even
a movie showing the trick in work. IF ONLY I HAD KNOWN THIS AT THE
TIME!!!!!!! It's close to the suggestion posted originally by M.A. Stewart
about using one tyne of a ball joint fork - I think if I had read that
before my attempt, even though I don't have the fork, I would have thought
to look around for a piece of metal to wedge in there (like a chisel) and
maybe I could have succeeded. But with the ratchet trick, you don't even
need a hammer - just jack up the assy, wedge in the ratchet (or any properly
sized piece of metal), then lower the jack. If the fork is still in, the
spring tension will pop the arm off the ball joint stud; if the fork is out,
just stepping down smartly with your foot on the top of the caliper will pop
it out. (so everyone claims - we'll see soon enough!)

I've read enough not to fear getting the inner end of the shaft free from
the differential, but I might have gotten stuck on getting the outer end of
the shaft out of the hub (if I had gotten past the lower arm problem), but
again, because I'm in CA and not the rust belt, I don't think that will be a
great problem. (probably shouldn't have said that).

I'm way too sore and tired and spent to even think about when I'll next try
this job, but having the 'ratchet trick' to try makes a part of me almost
eager to get back in the fray. Maybe in a few days...

thanks for all responses!

 

I have utterly no idea what you're talking about here, with the 10, 12, 14,
etc sockets!

I'm hoping you're right about the fluid - like a ninny I had followed
directions and drained my tranny before I had determined whether I could get
though the crucial steps. When I got stuck, I had no choice but to put all
my new gear oil (~$20) in, thinking I'd have to re-drain and save it when I
got around to trying the job again.

When you say 'in a certain position' - I'm thinking if I just jack up one
side of the car at a time and do that side's axle, there will be enough tilt
in the transaxle that no oil will leak out the axle hole? I guess even if
some does leak out, it won't be much this way, and easy to top off after job
done.

thanks for you input.

 

i'm not talking completely about removing the axle, just getting
sufficient clearance to pop the ends frm the diff.

then you weren't using the correct tool!

dude, you've clearly never worked on many siezed joints. if you had,
you'd know that the correct tool has the job done in 2 minutes, and that
a fudge like you describe can take hours, not counting repair of damaged
parts and personal injury. $60 for the right tool is /so/ cheap.

why does that not surprise me?

 

dude! first, you gotta ask the right question. second, some of us work
for a living! you want free, you gotta chill.

that is a lucky california trick. and it's bad for 2 reasons. first is
that it overstresses the actual balljoint. that can lead to premature
failure of the ball/socket, and in extreme cases, fatigue of the post.
second is that it's still not guaranteed to work! the correct joint
splitter is /guaranteed/ to work. period. no stressing the wrong
parts. it's also the safest work practice.

dude, all this stuff about being tired & sore makes for injury. chicks
may dig scars, but they're not so keen on disfigurement. and
disfigurement is /way/ more expensive than this misconception that you
can't afford the tool. $60 for the tool is cheap, young grasshopper.

 

If the ball joint is that stuck in the taper, and the proper tool is
unavailable or doesn't work, I have resorted to a pickle fork for tie rod
ends on my 87 prelude. The angle of the forks is much steeper, and the
opening of the forks is much narrower than the ball joint pickle forks out
there. And I got lucky and did not destroy the rubber boot on the ball joint.


On the 87 'lude, I did disassemble the inner joint, then reassembled after
running the shaft through the fork. I am located in Winnipeg, much salt and
rust up here so I didn't even want to try loosening the nuts on the steering
fork. I don't think its crazy to do that, but based on the info you provided,
you did the right thing.

t

 

Dude! - "overstresses the actual balljoint"???? In what possible way? The
'trick' is to simply insert a 'fulcrum' at the PRECISE POINT you would want
a fulcrum, using the little known fact that as the suspension rises, the
distance between the 2 surfaces where the 'ratchet' goes widens. Thus you
wind up, with the ratchet in place, with a 'super-lever', which will deliver
the near EXACT pull-apart force desired, without even touching the ball
joint. (and they say it's /guaranteed/ to work, every time, 100%!) Most
shops don't have the one tool that is perfect (the one I mentioned), and
just heat the lower arm end with a torch and slam CRAP out of the lower end
with a BFH - that would 'over-stress' the balljoint no end compared to this
method, I'd think. And again, the tool the official manual recomments is a
2-arm gear puller, (that's why I tried one) and gear pullers simply DO NOT
WORK on stuck-hard arms. It took me a long time to track down the reference
to the tool I mentioned, which is the one you 'should' use, if you can
afford it and wait a week for delivery, but even if someone handed me that
tool right now, I would try the ratchet trick on my next go-around, as the
cleverness of it makes it more 'right' than anything (I disagree with your
negatives about this method - doesn't stress the 'wrong parts' at all).
[I've noticed people who have spent $$$ on tools never like to hear about a
clever method which gets around the tool! I LIVE for clever methods - it's
the only thing that elevates car work out of the banal hell-realm most of it
is about.]

I agree totally, old praying mantis! BUT, as I said, I had NO money for a
$60 tool. I meant that. Rent every month, you know. I'm on the edge of the
abyss. Life is like that sometime (for grasshoppers at least).

 

i know what a fulcrum is thanks. this method exerts [potentially
several tons] force on the actual balljoint. that can elongate the cup
in which it sits making it loose. in addition, it stresses the stalk
between the ball & the taper - and as tegger can attest, that is a
fatigue point. now, if using your method, it just pops apart without
major drama, you're probably ok, but if it doesn't, and you have to get
rough with it, you're going to cause the damage i describe. the correct
tool exerts no stress on the joint - it's all kept within the post, and
the areas of the post that are best able to cope.

two wrongs don't make a right!

i'm not talking about a gear puller. as i told you before, go to
tegger.com and check out the correct tool.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#balljoints

sorry, wrong.

so do i, but this isn't one of them.

what's your emergency room deductible? i'll bet it's more that $60, 2
tanks of gas, so don't b.s. that you've not got the money. sell the
tool again after you're done if you think you'll never use it again. or
rent it. if you can't afford this, you can't afford the car or the
insurance or the licence or the tires or...

 

The puller isn't required. All you need are these proper tools:

10mm socket drive.
12mm socket drive.
14mm socket drive.
17mm socket drive.
17mm wrench.
??mm socket drive for spindle nut.
1/2 and 3/4 Ratchet
1 socket drive ext.
1 helper to turn the steering.

No hammers and very safe procedures not mentioned in the service
manual. The procedure is a bit complex to describe but if there's any
questions...

Right, tilt at a decent height. Whatever drains out, just consider it
normal, but never reuse it. Might work on 5-speed transmissions but can't
say for sure.

Visual aids: tools required.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0528900.html
http://www.toolweb.com/pics/KTI24080.jpg
http://www.arizonatools.com/img/products/P/PRO07516S.JPG
http://www.tona.cz/catobr/k_2018.png
http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/909151_lg.jpg
http://listing.hk.business.yahoo.com/images/products/11386/121813.jpg

 

Something that appears to ONLY be available in Ontario and Quebec.
http://www.krown.com/
http://www.rustcheck.com/

It works wonderfully. The best of anything I've ever seen. Better than tthe
waxy or gummy stuff. It does swell weatherstripping and is messy, but those
are good tradeoffs for a car that does not rust.

Northeastern US states could benefit greatly from this, yet it's not sold
there.

Hm. Not good.

Probably why my mechanic refused to consider doing the work.

I asked him if he wanted to change the bushings at the same time as the
clutch if I gave him both jobs at once.