Can I upgrade to disc brakes front and rear? '05 Accord

Discussion in 'Accord' started by Hrundi V. Bakshi, May 16, 2007.

  1. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    Matt Ion Guest

    Didn't actually get to DRIVE one (probably because I couldn't fit my fat
    ass into its bucket with a shoehorn and a gallon of vaseline), but I
    worked with a CASCAR team for a season... they all had front and rear
    discs, and lemme tell ya, on the short oval, those brakes would spend
    half the circuit glowing red... but they cooled down pretty quick out of
    the apex. Of course, having dedicated ducting to scoop air from the air
    dam and pipe it right onto the rotors helped :)
     
    Matt Ion, May 19, 2007
    #21
  2. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    bob zee Guest

    i really, really enjoyed all of your posts until this one. you are an
    idiot. go away.

    bob z.
     
    bob zee, May 20, 2007
    #22
  3. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    Tegger Guest



    Except that I happen to be right.

    I see so many people go on and on about the friction area of drums vs that
    of discs, and cite the better heat-shedding capabilites of discs. The
    problem is...all that is IRRELEVANT.

    Rear brakes of either type generate so little heat that fade is NOT even
    close to being any kind of a concern. Heat-fade is a concern with the
    FRONTS (which handle 80% of braking effort), which is why all road cars use
    discs at the front these days.

    Rear discs heat up so little in use they cannot even reliably burn off the
    moisture they collect, which is why they rust up so badly. Rear drums don't
    heat up much at all either, but they are basically sealed from the weather.

    A test if you want to try it. Procure the use of a rear disc-braked car and
    a rear drum-braked one. Drive both vehicles up to 30 mph or so on a
    deserted road. Now apply the parking brake hard, just short of lockup, as
    though you were going to stop the car using just that brake.
    You will find both systems feel exactly the same, and any "fade" will be
    identical on both.
    Of course, I assume both cars have rear brakes in good repair...
     
    Tegger, May 20, 2007
    #23
  4. That's my experience, too. Here in Arizona rust isn't a problem, but discs
    still have more noise problems than drums do and the slide pins are still
    troublesome. The only problem I've ever had with rear drums is worn-out
    self-adjusters. Replace the self-adjuster assembly (usually when the linings
    are worn out) and they are good for the rest of the life of the car.

    I'm convinced front drums are what gave drum brakes their reputation as
    second rate. I learned to drive on cars that had drums all around, and they
    were completely unacceptable for highway use.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 20, 2007
    #24
  5. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    jim beam Guest

    a number of manufacturers don't have slide pins on rear disks - they use
    old fashioned twin-piston calipers because there are no steering
    geometry constraints. [single piston front calipers were originally
    born of the desire to create negative steering scrub radius.] bmw,
    volvo and subaru use twin-piston iirc.
    i'd say it differently - it's front drums that /prove/ they're second
    rate! their action is non-linear and they can only dump heat /through/
    the drum metal by conduction, not direct to atmosphere like a disk.
     
    jim beam, May 20, 2007
    #25
  6. They are definitely second rate for the front, where they have lots of heat
    to dump. Drum brakes fade like crazy in that application. That isn't an
    issue in the rear.

    From Edmunds techcenter @ http://tinyurl.com/6r6kh : ".. the truth is that
    today's disc/drum setups are completely adequate for the majority of new
    cars. Remember that both disc and drum brake design has been vastly improved
    in the last 20 years. In fact, the current rear drum brake systems on
    today's cars would provide better stopping performance then [sic] the front
    disc setups of the '70s. And today's front disc brakes are truly exceptional
    in terms of stopping power. Combined with the fact that between 60 and 90
    percent of a vehicle's stopping power comes from the front wheels, it's
    clear that a well-designed, modern drum brake is all that's required for
    most rear wheel brake duty."

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 20, 2007
    #26
  7. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    Matt Ion Guest

    You'll note that drums are still used almost universally in semi-trailer
    rigs, where massive stopping power is of utmost importance.

    Of course, if you really want to confuse the issue, you can always look
    at the "hub brakes" used on train cars....
     
    Matt Ion, May 20, 2007
    #27
  8. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    jim beam Guest

    eh? that's bullshit. whoever wrote that is basing it on the erroneous
    supposition that because drum brakes are still used, there must be a
    reason, and is just guessing that it's about performance. but it's just
    a guess and has no basis in fact if they'd bothered to look up
    performance figures. the reason drum brakes are used is cost and hand
    brake implementation. and market segmentation creeps in there too to
    some extent.
    what's required and what's best are not the same thing.
     
    jim beam, May 20, 2007
    #28
  9. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    jim beam Guest

    it's true that most trailers use them, but it's not because of superior
    performance.

    http://www.mcicoach.com/Parts-Service-Support/partsNewsDrum2Disc.htm
    is the way of the future. and hopefully, rigs having to use runaway
    ramps will be a thing of the past.
     
    jim beam, May 20, 2007
    #29
  10. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    Dave Kelsen Guest

    Christ, Jim; is there any fucking way you could be more pompous? Man!

    For what it's worth, you might try actually reading the paragraph above
    yours. Nothing is said about the reason drum brakes are used. Only
    that they are better than they used to be, and in the following
    paragraph, that they are adequate to the job requirements.

    Through the years you've shown yourself to be very knowledgeable, as
    well as high-handed, overbearing, impatient and rude.

    Or maybe it's just me. Ah, well, it's usenet.


    RFT!!!
    Dave Kelsen
     
    Dave Kelsen, May 21, 2007
    #30
  11. The part before the excerpt notes that drums are used because they are less
    expensive. Their point is that drums are adequate for the application. Maybe
    not "best" but "good enough."

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 21, 2007
    #31
  12. In trucks and trains the brakes are pre-engaged; air pressure is required to
    release them. It is easier to do that with drums than disks.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 21, 2007
    #32
  13. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    jim beam Guest

    "the current rear drum brake systems on today's cars would provide
    better stopping performance then [sic] the front disc setups of the
    '70s." is bullshit. it has no basis in fact - it's simply supposition
    for the reasons i outlined before.
     
    jim beam, May 21, 2007
    #33
  14. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    jim beam Guest

    true!
     
    jim beam, May 21, 2007
    #34
  15. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    Dave Kelsen Guest

    Thank you for your reasonable response to my outburst.

    I would think that to test that claim, you'd have to find figures on
    vehicles from the 70's which had disc front brakes - not difficult - and
    current vehicles which have drum front brakes, as well as similar weight
    and tire characteristics to those 70's cars, which I imagine would be
    awfully difficult. Maybe tractor-trailer rigs?


    RFT!!!
    Dave Kelsen
     
    Dave Kelsen, May 21, 2007
    #35
  16. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    jim beam Guest

    no, the baseless bull is that current /rear/ brakes are more effective
    than disks of the 70's. and for testing, you want to eliminate
    variables, especially tires.
     
    jim beam, May 21, 2007
    #36
  17. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    Dave Kelsen Guest

    That's what I was saying; you'd have to have vehicles with similar
    weight and tire characteristics in order to minimize those differences
    as factors.

    RFT!!!
    Dave Kelsen
     
    Dave Kelsen, May 22, 2007
    #37
  18. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    Tegger Guest



    No. Single-piston brakes are CHEAPER. Way, WAY cheaper. Single piston
    brakes were adopted for economy reasons and for no other.
     
    Tegger, May 22, 2007
    #38
  19. Hrundi V. Bakshi

    jim beam Guest

    not that simple.

    regarding the single/double thing, there's a few factors at play, one
    being that the caliper casting for single piston needs better q.c. to
    take the fatigue load of spanning the disk in a single piece and the
    more complex shape. with twin piston, there are two halves that bolt
    together and q.c. on a single more compact part is easier to cast. the
    extra piston is more expensive, but the housing can be cheaper and
    machining access is easier.

    but the biggest factor is steering geometry. by far. that's why you
    have "double piston" calipers like this:
    http://www2.partstrain.com/products/Engine/Brake/Brake_Caliper/1992~FORD~CROWN_VICTORIA~8~4.6~CROW-LX-003.html?index=17
    to get negative scrub radius, you have to get the hub face as close to
    the bottom swivel as possible. you can do that easily with single
    piston [single sided] caliper, but not easily with double [sided] unless
    you have shallow pistons and thin pads. that's not acceptable for
    production cars.
     
    jim beam, May 22, 2007
    #39
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