Chipped Crankshaft Pulley

Now that *is* interesting - never seen such a tool in a U.S. Honda manual
but of course, I've umm, missed a few... anybody else seen this bugger
mentioned?

In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
valve gear flapping around.

Sorry I don't know but what I do know is that there were some model years
which had the hex socket in the pulley and the info on when it appeared is
vague/imprecise and sometimes wrong. If you look at the Schley tool models
and years shown here:
http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=629 it says
that the 1.8L Integra engine didn't have the hex fitting till '94 and yet,
to my great relief, my '92 had it. If someone knows the relative sizes of
'91 vs. '92 Civic pulleys, that might give a starting point for a junkyard
search.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

OK, it seems that you have a different crank pulley than the one that I have
on my '88 Civic. Mine does not have the extra lip for the power steering
belt. It only has capacity for the alternator and AC belts. Both of these
belt wheels (or whatever you wish to call them) are about the same
diameter. The AC belt wheel has a nice flat lip on it. The tool I made for
my car didn't damage the pulley in any appreciable way.

If it were my unit, I would buy the appropriate holding tool from the
etoolcart website and replace the damaged pulley with one of the correct
design for your car from a wrecking yard. I don't know for certain, but it
could be that the nose of the crankshaft is different on cars that used the
later pulley design with the 50mm hex. I do know that on a '90 Accord
(which uses the later pulley design) the keyway for the woodruf key is quite
different than it is on my Civic. This difference would likely make using a
later pulley impossible.

Eric

 

OK, it seems that you have a different crank pulley than the one that I have
on my '88 Civic. Mine does not have the extra lip for the power steering
belt. It only has capacity for the alternator and AC belts. Both of these
belt wheels (or whatever you wish to call them) are about the same
diameter. The AC belt wheel has a nice flat lip on it. The tool I made for
my car didn't damage the pulley in any appreciable way.

If it were my unit, I would buy the appropriate holding tool from the
etoolcart website and replace the damaged pulley with one of the correct
design for your car from a wrecking yard. I don't know for certain, but it
could be that the nose of the crankshaft is different on cars that used the
later pulley design with the 50mm hex. I do know that on a '90 Accord
(which uses the later pulley design) the keyway for the woodruf key is quite
different than it is on my Civic. This difference would likely make using a
later pulley impossible.

Eric

 

I should have noted that I am not 100% sure these are the right tools for my
1991 Civic. The Concerto engine seems to be the same as the 91 Civic's. The
tools shown at each of the two sites look like they work the same way. I know
for sure I don't have any 50 mm hex setup, as I've seen in drawings of other
crankshaft pulleys. I know a special tool is appropriate and have seen no other
than those shown at the links above.

Chilton's doesn't mention this tool, either.

I should have also added that, as I look at this tool, I don't know that I could
get the necessary torque even with it. It really doesn't give me much more hope
than the tool I'm in the process of fabricating now.

Another nudge in the direction of researching interchangeability of crank
pulleys.

snip

I remember this coming up before. IIRC I have seen this warning at a few sites
(not searching for it; just happened on it). But so many people seemed to
ignore it, or IIRC we made some distinction between an impact hammer and an air
wrench, that I figured... But perhaps I figure wrong.

One more reason to hold back on an impact wrench.

What's killing me also is online drawings don't even give me a clue. E.g. at
Majestic's site, the drawing http://tinyurl.com/23qjb of the crankshaft pulley
is not accurate, shape-wise. The circumferential holes are actually *outside*
the circumference of the power steering belt wheel. That is, the holes sit on a
larger diameter than the diameter of the power steering belt wheel.

Fortunately I know of one salvage yard that has parts like this literally on
shelves in a huge warehouse. They can easily pull them down so I can take some
measurements. Or they might even know if this is do-able.

This is recreation for me at this point. I'm going to button my car back up
today, drive it to see how my "JB Weld" fix works, and reflect on this whole
pulley holder problem for a week or so. Not down about it. It's mostly
avocational at this point. Of course, if my timing belt fails next month because
of this tiny leak near/at the front crank seal, I'll be eating my words pronto.


Thanks as always for sharing your pithy experience, George.

 

I should have noted that I am not 100% sure these are the right tools for my
1991 Civic. The Concerto engine seems to be the same as the 91 Civic's. The
tools shown at each of the two sites look like they work the same way. I know
for sure I don't have any 50 mm hex setup, as I've seen in drawings of other
crankshaft pulleys. I know a special tool is appropriate and have seen no other
than those shown at the links above.

Chilton's doesn't mention this tool, either.

I should have also added that, as I look at this tool, I don't know that I could
get the necessary torque even with it. It really doesn't give me much more hope
than the tool I'm in the process of fabricating now.

Another nudge in the direction of researching interchangeability of crank
pulleys.

snip

I remember this coming up before. IIRC I have seen this warning at a few sites
(not searching for it; just happened on it). But so many people seemed to
ignore it, or IIRC we made some distinction between an impact hammer and an air
wrench, that I figured... But perhaps I figure wrong.

One more reason to hold back on an impact wrench.

What's killing me also is online drawings don't even give me a clue. E.g. at
Majestic's site, the drawing http://tinyurl.com/23qjb of the crankshaft pulley
is not accurate, shape-wise. The circumferential holes are actually *outside*
the circumference of the power steering belt wheel. That is, the holes sit on a
larger diameter than the diameter of the power steering belt wheel.

Fortunately I know of one salvage yard that has parts like this literally on
shelves in a huge warehouse. They can easily pull them down so I can take some
measurements. Or they might even know if this is do-able.

This is recreation for me at this point. I'm going to button my car back up
today, drive it to see how my "JB Weld" fix works, and reflect on this whole
pulley holder problem for a week or so. Not down about it. It's mostly
avocational at this point. Of course, if my timing belt fails next month because
of this tiny leak near/at the front crank seal, I'll be eating my words pronto.


Thanks as always for sharing your pithy experience, George.

 

Now I'm seeing Majestic's pulley sizes vary within the 1988 Civic's. Some of the
part numbers match that for my 1991 Civic's pulley. some do not. The little
sketches of the pulleys all appear the same(!)

Eric,

What you say re interchangeability sounds like a good start. I'll try to confirm
it.

Re getting the proper tool: My only concern is whether even with the correct
tool I could get the torque needed, as I just posted to George. Hopefully I'm
just not seeing all the details of using it yet. The dealer must have a
technique.

I'm tempted to buy a second, used crankshaft pulley and then try a modified
version of your tool. If I bust the old pulley completely, I'll get the correct
pulley holder tool and somehow figure out how to get the torque needed with it.
Then chalk this all up to "education."

Thanks much for posting this.

 

Now I'm seeing Majestic's pulley sizes vary within the 1988 Civic's. Some of the
part numbers match that for my 1991 Civic's pulley. some do not. The little
sketches of the pulleys all appear the same(!)

Eric,

What you say re interchangeability sounds like a good start. I'll try to confirm
it.

Re getting the proper tool: My only concern is whether even with the correct
tool I could get the torque needed, as I just posted to George. Hopefully I'm
just not seeing all the details of using it yet. The dealer must have a
technique.

I'm tempted to buy a second, used crankshaft pulley and then try a modified
version of your tool. If I bust the old pulley completely, I'll get the correct
pulley holder tool and somehow figure out how to get the torque needed with it.
Then chalk this all up to "education."

Thanks much for posting this.

 

They only caution not to use the impact wrench when re-installing. No
problem using it to remove the bolt.

 

They only caution not to use the impact wrench when re-installing. No
problem using it to remove the bolt.

 

They also show the use of a holding tool and torque wrench to remove the
bolt - read it how you want.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

They also show the use of a holding tool and torque wrench to remove the
bolt - read it how you want.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

The pulley holding tool at the etoolcart site looks very much like the one
that's illustrated in the manual. However, the honda manual also specifies
that there's a special socket that's to be used with this tool,
http://tinyurl.com/3bbuk. I didn't see this socket available at the
etoolcart site. It might be worth your while to call them and inquire about
the socket. It could be that they intend for you to use your own socket.
For that to work, you'll need to know the inside diameter of their tool and
find a socket that will work.

Eric

 

The pulley holding tool at the etoolcart site looks very much like the one
that's illustrated in the manual. However, the honda manual also specifies
that there's a special socket that's to be used with this tool,
http://tinyurl.com/3bbuk. I didn't see this socket available at the
etoolcart site. It might be worth your while to call them and inquire about
the socket. It could be that they intend for you to use your own socket.
For that to work, you'll need to know the inside diameter of their tool and
find a socket that will work.

Eric

 

It's my impression that's just the socket to use with the holding tool and
which gives a little extra depth to get at the bolt head. I'm sure you can
use either just a deep socket or regular socket+extension on a breaker bar
- get the impact strength socket and/or extension type if you think it'll
be better and flex less under torque. I have the Honda 50mm hex tool and
handle and it doesn't require any special socket - it's quite flush with
the pulley face.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

It's my impression that's just the socket to use with the holding tool and
which gives a little extra depth to get at the bolt head. I'm sure you can
use either just a deep socket or regular socket+extension on a breaker bar
- get the impact strength socket and/or extension type if you think it'll
be better and flex less under torque. I have the Honda 50mm hex tool and
handle and it doesn't require any special socket - it's quite flush with
the pulley face.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Not entirely. The socket fits through the center part of the holding tool
and functions as a fulcrum allowing the tool to lock the pulley in place.
In essence, the socket is performing two jobs, i.e., it forms a second pin
in the tool similar to the outer bolt that I used in the tool that I made
for my crankshaft pulley (http://tinyurl.com/2x432) and also allows you to
loosen the pulley bolt. The Honda service manual even states that some
molybdenum grease should be applied to the socket thereby suggesting that
the clearance between the holding tool and the socket is important (allowing
the socket to turn while under the friction from acting as a holding pin).

Correct. However, the two pulley holding tools work in different ways.
Having the tool flush with the pulley face, although important due to
clearance limitations, is not relevant since the tool for the early pulleys
uses pins to lock into the pulley. A deep impact socket may indeed work.
However, the socket's length and diameter may be important in order for the
tool to function efficiently.

Eric

 

Not entirely. The socket fits through the center part of the holding tool
and functions as a fulcrum allowing the tool to lock the pulley in place.
In essence, the socket is performing two jobs, i.e., it forms a second pin
in the tool similar to the outer bolt that I used in the tool that I made
for my crankshaft pulley (http://tinyurl.com/2x432) and also allows you to
loosen the pulley bolt. The Honda service manual even states that some
molybdenum grease should be applied to the socket thereby suggesting that
the clearance between the holding tool and the socket is important (allowing
the socket to turn while under the friction from acting as a holding pin).

Correct. However, the two pulley holding tools work in different ways.
Having the tool flush with the pulley face, although important due to
clearance limitations, is not relevant since the tool for the early pulleys
uses pins to lock into the pulley. A deep impact socket may indeed work.
However, the socket's length and diameter may be important in order for the
tool to function efficiently.

Eric

 

I have heard a number of reasons why it should be OK to use the impact
wrench to remove it, but not to torque it. Honda doesn't give a reason. My
hypotheses is that you not use the impact wrench to torque it down for fear
a cutting torch will be needed to get it off the next time.

Not having the impact wrench, I've executed that picture on the '96 Odyssey
and the '96 Integra when removing the bolt. Fun to watch from a safe
distance, especially on the Odyssey.

You need a hardened impact socket, extension and breaker bar (lesser stuff
will simply break). All standard sockets fit into the center of the tool.
That was not an issue. You do want a deep well socket though. I used a
jack stand for a fulcrum, a 4 foot piece of gas pipe on the breaker bar for
leverage and a second hardened breaker bar on the "tool" which was allowed
to brace itself against the frame to immobilize the crank shaft. The part
that was fun to watch was the hardened socket extension twisting a full 90
degrees before bolt broke loose. I still don't understand why something
(socket, extension, breaker bar, etc.) didn't break. If I had access to an
impact wrench, I certainly would have used it.

Retightening afterward with a torque wrench is an anti-climax. That 181
ft-lbs of torque to put it back (less on the Integra) is no big deal at all
compared to taking it off.

 

I have heard a number of reasons why it should be OK to use the impact
wrench to remove it, but not to torque it. Honda doesn't give a reason. My
hypotheses is that you not use the impact wrench to torque it down for fear
a cutting torch will be needed to get it off the next time.

Not having the impact wrench, I've executed that picture on the '96 Odyssey
and the '96 Integra when removing the bolt. Fun to watch from a safe
distance, especially on the Odyssey.

You need a hardened impact socket, extension and breaker bar (lesser stuff
will simply break). All standard sockets fit into the center of the tool.
That was not an issue. You do want a deep well socket though. I used a
jack stand for a fulcrum, a 4 foot piece of gas pipe on the breaker bar for
leverage and a second hardened breaker bar on the "tool" which was allowed
to brace itself against the frame to immobilize the crank shaft. The part
that was fun to watch was the hardened socket extension twisting a full 90
degrees before bolt broke loose. I still don't understand why something
(socket, extension, breaker bar, etc.) didn't break. If I had access to an
impact wrench, I certainly would have used it.

Retightening afterward with a torque wrench is an anti-climax. That 181
ft-lbs of torque to put it back (less on the Integra) is no big deal at all
compared to taking it off.

 

I looked at the drawing at the UK site more closely and see what you mean. I
also read George's and your subsequent posts. If I still needed the retail tool,
I'd likely inquire about the diameter of the socket hole's dimensions.

Onto the better news.

Yesterday I had an idea for modifying Eric's version of the tool so that the
tool's steel bar does not touch the power steering pulley lip. It consists of
Eric's design plus four lock rings and some rubber hose on each bolt. The lock
rings and hose act as spacers and a protector so the bolts don't impose a force
on the power steering pulley's lip. From right to left as one is standing at the
front of the car, looking down, it's: 7/16" (pulley holding tool) bolt head, 4
lock rings, rubber hose over 7/16" bolt, crankshaft pulley, 7/16" nut.

I didn't let the 2 foot steel bar push against the suspension or car's frame.
Instead, I let the non-pulley end push against a pile of four 1/2" plywood
boards on the ground.

With a 5 foot extension pipe over the 1.5 foot long breaker bar, I proceeded
slowly, intermittently checking to see that the bolts weren't pressing against
the lip of the power steering pulley. They did not. After applying I estimate
about half my weight, the pulley bolt broke free easily. I heard that huge, loud
metallic crack that everyone describes. Some dust rose. I checked for damage;
none was evident. I pushed with the 18" breaker bar alone, and sure enough the
bolt was free.

I estimate it took around 300 ft-lbs. of torque to break the bolt free. I did
apply a little PB Blaster penetrating oil to the pulley bolt two days ago. The
last time the bolt was removed was three years ago. It looks in good shape.

JB Weld seems to be holding the chunk that chipped off the other day together
fine. I did find a salvage yard that is pretty sure they have a 91 Civic
crankshaft pulley for $35. I am still thinking of replacing the pulley and still
have some concerns about the harmonic balancer.

Had an amusing word from a dealer yesterday morning. I called Dealer Parts to
see if by chance they had the retail pulley holding tool. They said no and then
added that my troubles might be that the bolt is a left-hand thread. Ha. I said
nothing, in the name of good relations, or because dealers are what they are.

For the archives again: Early 1990s Honda Civic (or all Honda?) crankshaft
pulley bolts are right-hand threaded = right tight and left loose).

Total cost of my 1991 Civic LX 1.5 liter crankshaft pulley holding tool was
under $10 as follows:
One 3/8" thick, 2' flat steel bar (a surveying stake, technically), Lowe's =
$3.27
Two 7/16" diameter, 3" long, Gr. 8 fine thread bolts, True Value Hardware =
$3.50 (or thereabouts)
Two 7/16" diameter, Gr. 8 fine thread nuts, True Value Hardware = $1.50 (or
thereabouts)
Eight 7/16" diameter Gr. 8 lock washers, True Value Hardware = $1.04
Three inches of 1/2 " ID, 3/4" OD 200 PSI Goodyear hose, Lowe's = $0.50 (or
thereabouts)

As Eric has described, drill the 7/16" diameter holes in the steel bar at one
end, 3 inches apart. Snug up the nuts on the bolts as much as possible. There
was still a little play when I started torquing but to no adverse effect, and
the play will help assemble everything.

I strongly recommend using two high quality 1/2 inch diameter, 10-inch long
extension drives and a breaker bar at least 1.5 foot long, supported by a jack,
as shown in part in the 4th photo from the top at site
http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html . Have strong, long pipe
you can put over the breaker bar to give yourself a longer torque arm without
risking life and limb.

Of course I had to buy various new tools for this project, like a 7/16"
titanium-coated drill bit ($6 at Autozone) and a 17 mm 1/2 inch drive deep
socket ($3.50 at Pep Boys) and the usual minor wastage purchases of bolts, nuts,
tools that don't work (few bucks) while I figured out how to make this all work.
(BTW, I ran some numbers for the stress on a 3/8" drive setup. Don't do it.
Breaking something is highly likely.)

I am delighted with this success. Thanks especially to Eric, George, Curly, E.
Meyer, Lex, Tom, Tegger and others who offered their experience on this matter
over the last few months. Also, thanks to Gene Blanchard for his web site (link
above).

Onto the seals and various and sundry maintenance around the cam and
crankshafts.