Chipped Crankshaft Pulley

I looked at the drawing at the UK site more closely and see what you mean. I
also read George's and your subsequent posts. If I still needed the retail tool,
I'd likely inquire about the diameter of the socket hole's dimensions.

Onto the better news.

Yesterday I had an idea for modifying Eric's version of the tool so that the
tool's steel bar does not touch the power steering pulley lip. It consists of
Eric's design plus four lock rings and some rubber hose on each bolt. The lock
rings and hose act as spacers and a protector so the bolts don't impose a force
on the power steering pulley's lip. From right to left as one is standing at the
front of the car, looking down, it's: 7/16" (pulley holding tool) bolt head, 4
lock rings, rubber hose over 7/16" bolt, crankshaft pulley, 7/16" nut.

I didn't let the 2 foot steel bar push against the suspension or car's frame.
Instead, I let the non-pulley end push against a pile of four 1/2" plywood
boards on the ground.

With a 5 foot extension pipe over the 1.5 foot long breaker bar, I proceeded
slowly, intermittently checking to see that the bolts weren't pressing against
the lip of the power steering pulley. They did not. After applying I estimate
about half my weight, the pulley bolt broke free easily. I heard that huge, loud
metallic crack that everyone describes. Some dust rose. I checked for damage;
none was evident. I pushed with the 18" breaker bar alone, and sure enough the
bolt was free.

I estimate it took around 300 ft-lbs. of torque to break the bolt free. I did
apply a little PB Blaster penetrating oil to the pulley bolt two days ago. The
last time the bolt was removed was three years ago. It looks in good shape.

JB Weld seems to be holding the chunk that chipped off the other day together
fine. I did find a salvage yard that is pretty sure they have a 91 Civic
crankshaft pulley for $35. I am still thinking of replacing the pulley and still
have some concerns about the harmonic balancer.

Had an amusing word from a dealer yesterday morning. I called Dealer Parts to
see if by chance they had the retail pulley holding tool. They said no and then
added that my troubles might be that the bolt is a left-hand thread. Ha. I said
nothing, in the name of good relations, or because dealers are what they are.

For the archives again: Early 1990s Honda Civic (or all Honda?) crankshaft
pulley bolts are right-hand threaded = right tight and left loose).

Total cost of my 1991 Civic LX 1.5 liter crankshaft pulley holding tool was
under $10 as follows:
One 3/8" thick, 2' flat steel bar (a surveying stake, technically), Lowe's =
$3.27
Two 7/16" diameter, 3" long, Gr. 8 fine thread bolts, True Value Hardware =
$3.50 (or thereabouts)
Two 7/16" diameter, Gr. 8 fine thread nuts, True Value Hardware = $1.50 (or
thereabouts)
Eight 7/16" diameter Gr. 8 lock washers, True Value Hardware = $1.04
Three inches of 1/2 " ID, 3/4" OD 200 PSI Goodyear hose, Lowe's = $0.50 (or
thereabouts)

As Eric has described, drill the 7/16" diameter holes in the steel bar at one
end, 3 inches apart. Snug up the nuts on the bolts as much as possible. There
was still a little play when I started torquing but to no adverse effect, and
the play will help assemble everything.

I strongly recommend using two high quality 1/2 inch diameter, 10-inch long
extension drives and a breaker bar at least 1.5 foot long, supported by a jack,
as shown in part in the 4th photo from the top at site
http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html . Have strong, long pipe
you can put over the breaker bar to give yourself a longer torque arm without
risking life and limb.

Of course I had to buy various new tools for this project, like a 7/16"
titanium-coated drill bit ($6 at Autozone) and a 17 mm 1/2 inch drive deep
socket ($3.50 at Pep Boys) and the usual minor wastage purchases of bolts, nuts,
tools that don't work (few bucks) while I figured out how to make this all work.
(BTW, I ran some numbers for the stress on a 3/8" drive setup. Don't do it.
Breaking something is highly likely.)

I am delighted with this success. Thanks especially to Eric, George, Curly, E.
Meyer, Lex, Tom, Tegger and others who offered their experience on this matter
over the last few months. Also, thanks to Gene Blanchard for his web site (link
above).

Onto the seals and various and sundry maintenance around the cam and
crankshafts.

 

Caroline wrote:
[snip]

Great news, By the way, the seals can be annoying to replace especially when
the factory seal drivers are not at hand. I've found that I can use some
large "machine washers" as seal drivers to tap the seal into the bore. The
washers go between the seal and my punch and protect the seal from being
damaged. The other trick is to cut a piece of plastic from the side of a
pop bottle to make a sleeve about 3" x 4". The sleeve is wrapped around the
seal journal on the crank and then seal is pushed over the sleeve into its
bore. You can remove the sleeve once you get the seal roughly half way into
the bore. Using the sleeve is important since it prevents the inner lip of
the seal from hanging up and getting folded over which can ruin the seal. A
light coat of grease goes on the inner lip of the seal and a thin coat of
ultra gray silicone goes on the outer lip. Good luck.

Eric

 

Caroline wrote:
[snip]

Great news, By the way, the seals can be annoying to replace especially when
the factory seal drivers are not at hand. I've found that I can use some
large "machine washers" as seal drivers to tap the seal into the bore. The
washers go between the seal and my punch and protect the seal from being
damaged. The other trick is to cut a piece of plastic from the side of a
pop bottle to make a sleeve about 3" x 4". The sleeve is wrapped around the
seal journal on the crank and then seal is pushed over the sleeve into its
bore. You can remove the sleeve once you get the seal roughly half way into
the bore. Using the sleeve is important since it prevents the inner lip of
the seal from hanging up and getting folded over which can ruin the seal. A
light coat of grease goes on the inner lip of the seal and a thin coat of
ultra gray silicone goes on the outer lip. Good luck.

Eric

 

Thanks, Eric. I have been seeing some cautions about this; the tools that are
sold for this; and the plastic pop bottle sleeve (maybe posted before by you)
and washer remedies. All are going into my notes.

Natually I don't have a good picture of the "guts" of the job yet, not having
laid hands on them yet but instead working from a lot of online drawings and
Chilton drawings. For example, with the help of Majestic Honda, I think I just
figured out this morning that the front crank seal is also known as the oil pump
front seal. (The crankshaft and oil pump shaft are actually one in the same? I
know, doh... ) Item 22 at http://tinyurl.com/3cuzs ? That right? (I found the
camshaft seal.)

Pretty sure I will replace the tensioner too, as Googling turns up the
suggestion to do it about every other timing belt change. Other folks do say "if
it ain't broke, don't fix it," but I lean towards conservatism on this item,
overall from my reading. Also, one shop in town I respect says they replace it
every other time.

 

Thanks, Eric. I have been seeing some cautions about this; the tools that are
sold for this; and the plastic pop bottle sleeve (maybe posted before by you)
and washer remedies. All are going into my notes.

Natually I don't have a good picture of the "guts" of the job yet, not having
laid hands on them yet but instead working from a lot of online drawings and
Chilton drawings. For example, with the help of Majestic Honda, I think I just
figured out this morning that the front crank seal is also known as the oil pump
front seal. (The crankshaft and oil pump shaft are actually one in the same? I
know, doh... ) Item 22 at http://tinyurl.com/3cuzs ? That right? (I found the
camshaft seal.)

Pretty sure I will replace the tensioner too, as Googling turns up the
suggestion to do it about every other timing belt change. Other folks do say "if
it ain't broke, don't fix it," but I lean towards conservatism on this item,
overall from my reading. Also, one shop in town I respect says they replace it
every other time.

 

OK - yes, the Honda tool does appear to have a socket which is a precision
fit in the holding tool which acts as a boss for the socket.

I haven't seen one of those pulleys in a while so I don't recall how well
it's shaped to accept the end of the SIR special tool - could be nasty if
it slipped out with 300lb/ft applied. It'd be interesting to hear what
SIR has to say on the subject of the external diameter of the socket.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

OK - yes, the Honda tool does appear to have a socket which is a precision
fit in the holding tool which acts as a boss for the socket.

I haven't seen one of those pulleys in a while so I don't recall how well
it's shaped to accept the end of the SIR special tool - could be nasty if
it slipped out with 300lb/ft applied. It'd be interesting to hear what
SIR has to say on the subject of the external diameter of the socket.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Yes, that's it.

Every other time for a tensioner bearing might be ok. Some shops do them
every time erring on the conservative side. Consider that a comeback after
a timing belt job for a noisy tensioner bearing is quite bad for the shop.
The cost of the bearing is small compared to the lost time and unhappy
customer from having to go back in to replace it later. Often times, a
tensioner bearing will not make noise with an old belt but once a new,
properly tensioned belt is installed it can began to sing. Evaluating
tensioner bearings can be tricky. My rules are as follows, if it spins
freely like an old skateboard wheel, i.e., keeps on spinning, or makes the
slightest bit of noise when rocked back and forth while spinning, then it's
time for a new one.

Eric

 

This is in my notes. Thanks much.

 

This has been a great thread to follow because I'm struggling with the
pulley bolt on my 95 accord right now.

I don't have the option to rig up a holding mechanism as previously
described, there are no holes in the crank pulley. I've tried liquid wrench
and banging away with an impact wrench (rated to 400 ft-lbs, man what are
they feeding those robots in japan!). No good.

BTW, I talked with a service technician at the dealer and they use the
impact wrench for removal all of the time. The holding tool is a last
resort.

I may just try to locate a bigger impact wrench, but it might come down to
getting the holding tool.

So, does anybody know if that tool that's always there on ebay
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=24819429
97&category=43994&sspagename=WDVW) is a piece of junk, or what?

 

What size is your engine? How many cylinders? Wagon or Sedan?

The above Ebay link says the tool is a 55 mm hex.

I am seeing commercially-available tools for 1990s Honda Accords that are 50 mm
and 55 mm.

55 mm:
http://www.bargaintools4u.com/c/Crowbars/Alltrade_648796_Honda_Crankcase_Pulley_
Removal_Tool_B0000TMLWQ.htm

50 mm:
http://www.sirtools.com/honda.htm , third photo from top, tool HO 50.
(I think I've seen this 50 mm tool for $25+shipping at other sites. Let me know
if you don't find it for this little. I just google for {Honda harmonic pulley
tool} and a lot of sites come up. Also some clever guy(s) here have made these
tools welding together pipe fittings and scrap iron.)

Ideally you can jack up the right front of your car, take off the wheel, remove
the splashguard, and take a measurement to be sure.

If you decide not to go the impact tool route, I think you'd probably want to
rig up a breaker bar to go into the hex tool and have this breaker bar push
against the ground. Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2 inch
extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt itself, with a
second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the extensions so you have
space to do the torquing, well away from the car frame. An ordinary car jack
supports the extensions so the torque you apply is applied as fully as possible
to the pulley bolt.

The photo at http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sp60100.html seems a little
misleading, as it doesn't show the extensions on the pulley bolt. I can't
believe any person could easily break the bolt free without a huge extension on
the breaker bar.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of other responses.

 

2.2, 4, Wagon

This is the same as the one on ebay, but 5 bucks more and minus the
extension. Looks like I would need another breaker bar for the tool shown at
bargaintools4u.

55 mm is definetely the right tool. I have the shop manual for my car.

I was reading another thread in this group and noted that somebody already
came up with my latest idea. Find a mecahnic with a big impact wrench to
break it loose and slip him a tenner!

Yeah right.. just slip the old 1/2" drive rachet in there crack it loose. No
problem .

So you think that tool on ebay is a joke?

 

I agree.

Also, dunno if you checked, but it appears both the Ebay sellers and
bargaintools want $10 for shipping.

I agree about the breaker bar.

From the Ebay photo, I estimate the Ebay wrench is about a foot long. For my 91
Civic LX, I had the left front supported by the lowest setting of a jackstand.
My home-made crankshaft pulley holding tool was 2 feet long and attached not at
the center. I still ended up stacking four or so 1/2 inch plywood pieces on the
ground for the tool's end to rest on, to get the optimal resisting torque. I am
also keeping in mind that I would rather keep everything at TDC when I go to
actually remove the timing belt. Maybe that's not a big deal but I don't want to
have to rotate the pulley away from TDC to get the bolt freed.

I don't know if you could find and slide a pipe over one end of the Ebay wrench
to extend it a bit, if need be, so it pushes against the ground.

I think you might have more maneuverability with a breaker bar set up.

Worth a try.

I don't know.

For one, I'd email the Ebay seller and ask if he made this tool himself or what,
because you don't see anything like it available commercially. (At least, I
didn't see any wrench like this available commercially.)

A few other things: The seller doesn't seem to give the item's location, listing
only "Cobra Heaven, U.S." That's not usual. People want to know from where an
item is being shipped. Then too he has a couple of negative reviews (but among
96% positive reviews). If you haven't already, maybe you should read his
rebuttals to these negative reviews... Then there's the Ebay tool's shape and
dimensions. Overall, I'd be a little less enthused about rolling the dice on
this item than I would a lot of others. But that's just me. (I've bought from
E-bay maybe three times in the past year or so.)

I suppose you know you can also keep checking Ebay for the tool. Pickings are a
little slim right now, but I've seen a few of the 50 or 55 mm tools come up in
the last few weeks. (Never saw my 91 Honda Civic's pulley tool, though.) I
thought they tended to run around $15 to $35.

I see the 95 Accords have at least two different pulley sizes (one for the four
cylinder and another for the V-6). I thought maybe the V-6 pulley got the larger
hex size. But yours is the smaller engine, and you say your manual lists the 55
mm hex size. George M. said he's only seen the 50 mm hex size in the service
manual.

Maybe they're one in the same, with the 55 mm hex size being an outside hex
measurement.

I'm baffled on this point.

 

The above Ebay link says the tool is a 55 mm hex.
Oops! I just looked at my manual again and realized that it is 50 mm.


That link above seems to be the best price, all the googling in the world
turns up the same tool from the same folks. Must be the way to go.

I have emailed him to see if he has a 50 mm version.

George is right, I was wrong

Doubt it.

Sorry I mis lead you!

 

The use of twenty inches of extension isn't a real great idea in my mind.
You're actually going to lose a lot of torque that could be applied to the
bolt. Instead, a considerable (and unquantified) amount of your effort will
go into simply twisting the extensions much like a torsion spring.

Eric

 

The torque applied at one end must equal that applied at the other. No torque is
"lost." Same idea as pushing/pulling on an ordinary spring at one end. For
static equilibrium, the other end experiences the exact same magnitude of force,
regardless of the compression/extension of the spring. Physics/Statics/Newton's
Third Law.

The only possible concern is exceeding the elastic strength of the drive
extension material. As long as one is using 1/2-inch extension drives, the
torque applied in this instance is insufficient to do so.

As I wrote, a jack should be used to support the extensions at their end outside
the car. The jack acts as a fulcrum point. This further minimizes stress in the
extension drives.

 

Right around $40 (not including shipping) is the best price I saw commercially,
so yes, I suppose the above link is probably about as good as any right now.

Non-commercially, I thought I saw one just like the one at the link above for
around $33 at Ebay yesterday, but it seems to have been sold. The 50 mm tool
does come up a lot on Ebay. It might be worth checking Ebay regularly for a week
or so.

Still a bit of a mystery why the Ebay tool you found and the other site ($24.99
tool) I posted say 55 mm. For a savings of maybe $15, I'd be tempted to try to
contact the seller and ask them to measure the inside hex span of Alltrade tool
#648796,

http://www.tools-r-us.biz/h/Honda/Alltrade_648796_Honda_Crankcase_Pul_B0000TMLWQ
..htm (among other sites) and see what gives.

 

eric may not be putting it in the terms you want, but long extensions
/are/ problematic because of wind-up. if you are undoing the bolt, the
stored energy of the twisted extension suddenly releasing can cause it
to jump. this can cause the socket to disengage the bolt head with
damage, or cause the operator to slip & injure themselves. same with
retorquing. bolts often have a "notchy" tightening pattern, and a long
extension makes it much more difficult to measure whether you're
tightening against a notch or whether you really have correct torque.
hence the [not scientifically correct but "useful" description of]
"loss" of torque.

clearly, if you have no choice, use the long extension, but shorter is
better. or use 3/4".

 

I agree people should be alert to some kind of a jump, but I suspect chances are
they won't even notice it.

I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers on
the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
readers (all two of us?). ;-)

Possibly, but more likely IMO is that, while unbolting, the bolt simply unscrews
a bit further.

I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so that
the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque required
closer to the body of the car.

For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to apply
more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.

Of course there's always the impact wrench, whose pros and cons have already
been discussed. Here you're chalking up another pro on the impact wrench side.
Noted.

If you mean the threads of a bolt may hang up somewhat while installing, because
of rough spots on the threads, yes, this might occur, but I disagree that the
extension fools a person into thinking the torque is correct. What's applied at
one end of the extension will equal what's applied at the other, as long as the
elastic strength of the material is not exceeded.

They'd be fooled with or without the extension.

Quite debatable, IMO.

This would certainly help. I presume one would use an adaptor at the 17 mm (for
my car) long 1/2-inch drive socket and everything else would be 3/4-inch drive.

 

alternative holding tool. Now mind you I did this on a 97 accord v6 but the
process should be similar

I removed the inspection shield for the transmission. (I have an automatic but
the manual trans would be similar)

I found a piece of plumbers strapping material
I removed 1 bolt from the torque converter and affixed the plumbers strapping
to the flywheel/torque converter
I ran the other end of the strapping material tightly and very straight over to
a bolt on the transmission. this could be any other substantial fastener on
the engine as well. this prevented the crankshaft from rotating.
Using an impact wrench, a very short lenght of air hose (to maximize pressure)
an impact extension and an impact wrench socket I was able to finally remove
the crankshaft bolt.
If you try to get by with regular sockets, extensions, and a lenghty air hose
you will only succeed to heat the socket fire cracker hot.

Hope that gives some new ideas.