Civic Hybrid or Prius owners...

Nickd,
I just got my Civic Hybrid in May. My preference was for the Toyota Prius
(more interior and cargo space, higher gas mileage, better Consumer Reports
evaluation) but the wait lists were just too long. For commuting I wanted
gas efficiency and most importantly, the added bonus (in Virginia only until
2006) that with special license tags, hybrid/clean fuel vehicles are allowed
in the restricted High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes during rush hour. I
will also get a federal tax credit ($1500 in '04). Civic itself is still a
Civic but with less acceleration (not a concern to me) and smaller trunk due
to the battery. I do prefer the Civic styling over the boxier Prius.
Seats are a bit stiff but still better than my Subaru Forester. I also
don't like the rear view blindspots. I am most peeved that my Civic had a
bad front door rattle that took 2 dealer visits to fix (it's much better but
not completely gone). I've owned several Toyotas that have been better
quality in fit and finish. But I did get a below invoice price on the Civic
with immediate delivery...while the Prius prices are most likely at/above
MSR with over 6 month wait in my area. I didn't do a cost analysis but the
easier commuting and time savings are very important to me; in my daily
rush hour commutes to Washington DC I get just over 50 mpg with careful
driving. Overall, the Civic Hybrid does meet my needs.

Anyway, that's just one owner's opinion. --V

 

Nick,

I'll answer your question directly. I've had my '03 Civic Hybrid for
over a year now. I *love* driving it. It is quiet, smooth and very fuel
efficient. It is plenty peppy, too. And has the general quality and
reliabilty you've come to expect from Honda (and Toyota). I've had
*zero* problems so far.

In tough *real world* driving (a 20 minute drive back and forth to work
year around in stop-and-go traffic), I am getting better than 40 miles
to a gallon.

Don't listen to the B.S. most of the posters on your thread are
shoveling out. A hybrid is clearly environmentally friendly on the
balance; and it clearly is a great gas saver. Every time the word
"hybrid" comes up, these trolls come out of the wood work with their
outrageous "proofs" that hybrids are a waste of money and good for
nothing but "political statement". What hogwash!!

You are obviously looking for what *you* regard as environmentally and
economically responsible. Follow your own head, heart and common sense.
I think you'd be happy with either the Civic Hybrid or the Prius. Best
of luck to you.

Gary

 

Really?

Can you prove that in the overall picture, including both manufacturing
and recycling/disposal costs, a hybrid is particularly more
environmentally friendly than its gasoline or diesel equivalent?

I love hearing from electric car people, for example, about their "zero
emissions" vehicle. They entirely fail to understand that unless their
car was charged with solar power, something somewhere created emissions
to create that energy. The hybrid argument is similar; there are
environmental costs involved in building, maintaining, and disposing of
the hybrid, for example that don't exist with a VW TDI or Toyota Corolla.

If you don't take it all into consideration, you're sticking your head
in the sand.

Another example of not looking at the big picture: the NHTSA keeps
harping about "this year, highway deaths are up!" and equates that to
all sorts of things, like "speed kills!" What they don't acknowledge is
that highway miles are up, too, such that deaths per hundred million
miles driven have remained constant over the last several years--and
that the current death RATE figure is one-twentieth or less that of 30
years ago.

You can focus on one thing and rationalize anything to yourself, but
that doesn't make it right.

 

My Brother-In-Law bought a new Toyota Prius and loves it. I drove it for a
whole day and hated it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

The Prius would get out on the big road and run at or above the legal
limit with no real difficulty other than taking 20 seconds or more to get
there. I don't know how this compares to the Civic, but with the Prius
there is very little acceleration, which might pose a hazard in situations
where you need some 'giddy-up 'n go" to get out of the way or otherwise
avoid. In a big city (i.e., Houston) the lack of positive acceleration is
a little scary.

On the highway you will definitely want to use the cruise control because
at both town and highway speeds I found it impossible to hold a steady
speed. There is also a general tendancy to understeer.

It's a little tiny car which (no surprise) rides like a little tiny car. I
think on a long trip it would beat my kidneys to death. Around town it
might be OK, but I'm 58 years old and when I get out on the highway I want
comfort. The Prius ain't it.

 

Do the hybrid Hondas use the Otto cycle? I know that the Toyota Prius
uses the Atkinson cycle - how would that compare to the diesel for
efficiency? (We already know that the emissions are worse for the
diesel, especially with the dirty fuel in the US...)

 

Actually, it's a $1500 US federal income tax DEDUCTION, not credit.
See IRS Publication 535, chapter 12, for the Clean Fueled Vehicle
tax deduction. (Only good on new hybrids, not leased, for the tax
year that the vehicle is purchased within. Up to Dec. 31, 2003 the
deduction was $2000, for 2004 it's $1500, for 2005 it's $1000, and it
keeps reducing by $500 each year thereafter until it finally sunsets,
or the date gets moved again by congress...)

How much the deduction is worth to you in taxes depends on the tax
bracket that you're in.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/block/2004-01-13-ym_x.htm

 

Seems like you're used to driving by listening to the sound of the
engine... On the Prius (which has an eCVT), the sound of the engine
does not correspond to the speed that you're going, but to the amount
of power that you're requesting. Many people new to the car, and used
to listening to the engine (usually people coming from a manual
tranmsission vehicle), when they floor the accelerator pedal and hear
the engine roar, instinctively take their foot off of the pedal thinking
that they're straining the engine (you can't strain the engine). If
you're asking a Prius for heavy acceleration, or going up a steep hill,
the engine will be very loud/high RPMs. If you're coasting or going
downhill, the engine will turn off (even at highway speeds). So, you
just can't listen to the engine - just drive the car, watch the
spedometer if you have to, but there's more than enough ooomph to get
you going and out of harm's way.

I haven't hung around the CVT Civic hybrid boards long enough to know
if there's a similar engine sound different than what you'd expect
issue...

 

Interesting. I hadn't heard of the Atkinson cycle, although I have
heard of his diet.

Honda uses what they call a V-TEC engine. It changes the
timing of the intake valve with increasing engine speed. However,
I don't believe it is intended to
change the compression ratio although it probably does to some extent.
The Atkinson is a variation of the Otto cycle.

Depending upon when you closed the intake valve during the "compression"
stroke, I suppose the Atkinson cycle could be more efficient than the
Diesel cycle. However, the power output per cycle would be greatly
reduced. Therefore, to get the same amount of power as produced
by a 4-cylinder Otto or Diesel, one would need a 6 or 8 cylinder engine.
The energy require to operated the extra cylinders would tend to decrease
the overall efficiency of the engine. Where the balance would be is not
known to me.