Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds

Discussion in 'Civic' started by RPS, May 12, 2008.

  1. RPS

    frijoli Guest

    Nope. Look again.
    [/QUOTE]
    Okay, where am I to look? I didn't see it on Honda's' site, nor
    Fueleconomy.gov
     
    frijoli, May 14, 2008
    #61
  2. RPS

    Elle Guest

    Not to sound condescending or anything, but I am glad you
    chimed in, because on further reading, I thought it should
    be pointed out that a major factor in automatics
    traditionally getting worse MPG is the torque converter. The
    TC represents a "fluid coupling," whereas the manual
    tranny's clutch etc. are a mechanical linkage. Energy
    transmission losses are greater with the liquid linkage. As
    many of the pros here know. (I am just an amateur who works
    on her own car and reads like crazy to understand it.)

    But this has changed somewhat with the advent of the "lock
    up torque converter."

    Optimal gearing is still said to be a factor, though.
    Several other factors are said to play significant roles, as
    well. So my post did not do justice to why older automatic
    trannies were less efficient than manual trannies.
    Sure. www.fueleconomy.gov. Just sort of randomly, based on
    checking this a few times in the last several years, and
    using only the same engine size for a given model:

    2007 Civic, same engine size, both five forward speeds:
    Manual = 26 MPG city, 34 MPG highway
    Auto = 25, 36

    2007 Subaru Impreza (an all-wheel drive vehicle)
    Manual (5-speed) = 19, 26
    Auto (4-speed) = 20, 25

    2007 Nissan Sentra
    Manual (6-speed) = 24, 31
    Auto (variable gear) = 25, 33

    2007 Hyundai Elantra
    Manual (5-speed) = 24, 33
    Auto (4-speed) = 25, 33

    2007 Kia Rio
    Manual (5-speed) = 27, 32
    Auto (4-speed) = 25, 35

    From this survey, I think we could argue that newer
    automatic trannies seem to do better at highway speeds, even
    though it often has fewer gears. The lock up converter (used
    only at higher speeds) is the first area I would explore to
    explain most of this higher efficiency. I see the lockup
    converter started gaining in popularity around the late
    1970s but ISTM only recently did all models start having
    them. I see the 1995 versions of the cars above never saw
    the autos beating the manuals for miles per gallon. Granted
    other improvements may have been implemented, like
    continuously variable transmissions (CVT).

    The Sentra is interesting, since for the two versions I
    compared, the big difference is the variable gearing in the
    auto. It's the only model that beat the manual version in
    both city and highway.

    Toyota OTOH seems to consistently have no models where the
    auto does better than the manual under city or highway
    conditions.

    Again, just an amateur here.
     
    Elle, May 14, 2008
    #62
  3. RPS

    Josh S Guest

    My Chrysler 4 sp automatic, which came out in the early 90s, has lockup
    on the top 3 gears. In effect it has 7 gears.
    The fuel mileage is excellent.
     
    Josh S, May 15, 2008
    #63
  4. RPS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    "lockup" doesn't change gear ratios,it just eliminates torque converter
    slippage. it "locks" the input turbine to the output turbine.

    No "7 gears".

    "Overdrive" would be "extra" gears.
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2008
    #64
  5. RPS

    Tomes Guest

    Yep, I wish Toyota would have put that in as well. I a car as sophisticated
    as this one is, it should also be automatically driven.
    Tomes
     
    Tomes, May 15, 2008
    #65
  6. RPS

    AS Guest

    You are rightly concerned about the batteries.

    These 270 or so volt batteries have a list price in the $2500 range.
    They have 228 cells in series and only one needs to go bad to ruin your
    battery assembly. Newer models only use 201.6 volt batteries, ;)

    Besides you have the $3400 list price for the inverter and $1100 for the
    generator module.

    Though the warranty should do good, imagine getting hit with the
    prorated prices.

    Think about all the dead weight you carry around, pollution issues
    (disposing of the battery), and then, having your system repaired in
    case of a failure. We all have heard the stories about a battery not
    charging, alternator issues etc with conventional cars. Think about a
    system many times more complex...

    With all the problems fuel cells still have, I think hydrogen is the way
    to go.
     
    AS, May 15, 2008
    #66
  7. RPS

    Jeff Guest


    Yet, the individual cells can be replaced.
    Yet, the technology has been proven and has been in use for over ten
    years (although not in the US during the first few years).
    Why? Hydrogen is used to power fuel cells. And there is almost no
    infrastructure for fuel cells. Hydrogen has the problem that to make
    hydrogen, CO2 is generated, as well (i.e., using hyrdogen as a fuel
    still results in CO2 being produced).

    Fuel cells have been used for year. In fact, the O2 tank that exploded
    on Apollo 13 when I was about four was used in two different types of
    fuel cells (mitochondria in the astronaut's bodies and the fuel cells
    that supplied electricity to the Aquarius and Odyssey).
     
    Jeff, May 15, 2008
    #67
  8. RPS

    mjc13 Guest

    When he wrote "in effect" he was probably right. Unless the RPM at
    lockup happens to match between one or more of those combinations, you
    get seven different "ratios" of crankshaft to ouput shaft speed, even
    though it doesn't happen because of gear ratios changing.
     
    mjc13, May 15, 2008
    #68
  9. RPS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    nope. wrongo.
    when the converter locks up,the crank RPM equals the converter output
    RPM,because they are -locked together-. No slippage.

    after that,it's all gear ratios determining output shaft RPMs.
    fixed ratios.
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2008
    #69
  10. RPS

    Enrico Fermi Guest

    Hydrogen can be produced pollution-free with solar cells. Solar array
    produces DC power. DC power is used to split water into H and O2. H is used
    in fuel cells or whatever. Heck, it burns nicely in internal combustion
    engines. Or externally in the Hindenburg. O2 is sold to NASA for their
    monkey business. What could be simpler? Alternative methods to produce
    energy are easy. All they require is our cleverness and industry. Tough part
    is the politics. Here in Houston the normal grocery-getter is an F-350
    dually towing a boat. It is easy to hear its one passenger muttering about
    the high diesel prices to the clerk at HEB. The most gentle suggestion to
    this poor soul that perhaps a smaller vehicle might be in their enlightened
    self-interest and well.......you can imagine. We are talking about a driver
    who has a Ph.D. in engineering here. From Texas A&M. The best damn school on
    earth!
    Light rail, interurban, bike paths, golf cart trails, abundant plug-ins for
    the electric vehicles, efficient use of our rail freight system to keep the
    use of 18 wheelers to a minimum and a zillion other schemes (no hyperbole)
    will never come to fruition because we are too ignorant as a species. And
    too stubborn.
    On the topic of my 2003 Civic Si engine spinning too fast at 80mph: Is it
    possible and affordable to put a 6 speed in that little car? I'd be happier
    if its revs were closer to 2000 at 80 mph. Anyone have a referral for that
    project?
     
    Enrico Fermi, May 15, 2008
    #70
  11. RPS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    I suspect the tranny from an RSX would fit in the Civic,it's a 6
    speed,IIRC.
    Whether that changes the final drive ratio,I don't know.

    you could always go to a larger diameter tire and recal the speedo.
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2008
    #71
  12. RPS

    Enrico Fermi Guest

    That is one good idea. The larger tire would act to effectively lower my
    final drive ratio, thus slowing me down off the line. That might be a good
    thing :) My 64 VW 1.4 had a 4.11 gear and was quick until the rpm's ran out
    at 15 mph for the 1-2 shift. That flat four wasn't a real high revver. But,
    since I've done no homework at all, it is possible the six speed from the
    RSX could have the same ratios for 1st and 6th that my box has for 1st and
    5th, but with closer ratios. That would do me no good at all for my plan. I
    should research the possibility of putting a taller 5th gear in my box.
    Perhaps that is possible? My first inclination is to just throw money at the
    idea and see what happens. I hope I know better than that......
     
    Enrico Fermi, May 15, 2008
    #72
  13. RPS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    I doubt the gears would be available,and tearing apart your tranny would be
    a very complex task with a high chance for screwing things up.
    I would just swap the whole tranny,assuming the gear ratios were what you
    desire.(and as long as you're putting in the RSX tranny,the RSX-S motor
    would be a nice increase,too!)

    BTW,is the motor in your Civic a K series?
    Other Honda motors rotate in the opposite direction,and are positioned 180
    deg from the K series.
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2008
    #73
  14. RPS

    Enrico Fermi Guest

    It seems my motor is a K20A3 which would swap with the RSX powerplant. I
    really feel insane contemplating that. I'll leave well enough alone for now
    :)
     
    Enrico Fermi, May 15, 2008
    #74
  15. RPS

    mjc13 Guest

    Are you deliberately misunderstanding us? Nobody claimed an
    overdrive type shaft speed ratio. What is being said is that when the
    lockup engages, you do in fact get the geared ratio - which you
    *weren't* effectively getting with the converter unlocked. So for each
    gear in which the lockup works, you have two different shaft speed
    ratios: one with the lock off and one with the lock on. The *effect* is
    the same as having seven gear ratios, with *none* of them being an
    overdrive. I don't know how much clear I can make it...
     
    mjc13, May 15, 2008
    #75
  16. RPS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    It's still not any "effective gear ratio".It's just slippage.Wasted energy.
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2008
    #76
  17. RPS

    mjc13 Guest


    Whatever you have to say. Usenet never changes...
     
    mjc13, May 15, 2008
    #77
  18. RPS

    Elle Guest

    From my reading, the typical auto tranny's lockup does not
    fully engage until cruising at speeds upwards of 40 mph. At
    40 mph, it is probably in 3rd or 4th gear. At lower speeds,
    the lockup is disengaged. But the gear should alway be lower
    at lower speeds, too. So I am not sure that I buy Josh's
    characterization of doubling the top three gears to yield
    effectively seven gears on a 4-speed automatic tranny.

    On the other hand, I see that "partial lockup" is possible
    and occurs under many conditions, too. This is per the 95-97
    Civic's description at
    http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/media/manuals/CivicManual/pdf/14-34.pdf.
    Partial lockup has to be better than no lockup, as far as
    overall fuel efficiency is concerned.

    So I would say it is not exactly two gears for one that
    lockup on/off gives. It's more that lockup is often active
    in degrees, being neither fully on nor fully off. When it is
    "on" even partly, I expect it usually helps fuel efficiency
    compared to no lockup at all.
     
    Elle, May 15, 2008
    #78
  19. RPS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    slippage would be an infinite number of "gears".
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2008
    #79
  20. RPS

    Elle Guest

    In this context, where I think Josh was arguing the lockup
    feature increases the effective number of gears and so
    increases engine efficiency, I would not put it this way.
    The slippage is arguably infinite gears but not in a way
    that improves efficiency the way direct mechanical linkage
    (= lockup) to infinite gears would.

    To split hairs.
     
    Elle, May 16, 2008
    #80
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