Correcting negative caster on 97 Accord

For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with
my 97 Accord (200K miles)
After new tires (Michelin Pilot Exaltos), new struts and multiple
alignments, the problem still persisted.
I experience the following symptoms.
* little on-center feel
* suspension feels loose
* steering feels disconnected from the wheels
* handling is unstable at freeway speeds
* car wallows at freeway speeds
* steering gets tripped up by road irregularities and bumps at all
speeds
* car veers side to side on grooved pavement. (tires basically lock
into grooves)
* crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high
speeds.

I think I may have finally figured out the problem.
I brought the car to a local alignment shop, which told me that they
can only adjust toe.
Apparently camber and caster can not be adjusted (forget if this is a
limitation of the car
or only certain alignment shops)
The alignment machine they had it on showed a significant negative
caster which is known to cause these type of symptoms. I believe the
machine showed the factory specs are 2.8, with my car registering 1.08
In summary, I would like to know if indeed front caster is adjustable
on 94-97 Honda Accords.
If not, can I correct a negative caster by replacing bushings and other
worn suspension components?
This handling issue is driving me nuts and only seems to be getting
worse.
Even at 200K, my Accord runs great and I want to keep it in top shape
Thanks

 

first things first - you don't have negative caster, you have reduced
caster.

to answer your direct question, no, caster is not adjustable - you need
to have the frame straightened to fix it.

finally, the chances of this being the sole cause of your handling
problems are slim. by the symptoms you describe, you have wear in some
of your suspension componentry. front upper wishbone pivots are prime
candidates. they're seldom diagnosed properly because if the car is up
on the stand and the wheel off, the suspension is out of its normal
range of motion and the pivot is tight. on the road however, it's in
its normal position of maximum wear and that top joint is free to slop
about and causes all kinds of mischief. once all that stuff is sorted
out, you'll probably find the reduced caster to be be quite acceptable -
it only really affects the "return to center" action. regarding
wallowing, are your replacement shocks oem honda? if not, go back to
oem. if you can't afford those, go kyb. monroe and suchlike are to be
avoided.

 

The factory approved method is to replace parts until its in spec. In
practice, there might be a kit you can buy that will move things enough to
fix it. Failing that, take it to a frame/alignment shop (the people who
straighten car frames after accidents). They will have the equipment to
bend it back into spec.

I had an earlier Accord that had this same problem when I bought it.
Besides the handling issues, it ate tires at a rapid rate. None of the
chain tire and alignment shops could do anything with it (except take my
money).

I had previously discovered the frame shop on a referral from the Ford
dealer when I had a Ford Bronco with the twin I-beam front end that had to
be aligned by bending the i-beam. They found the right front wheel was
pushed back slightly, probably due to repeated parking incidents with curbs
or parking lot stoppers. This is apparently a common problem with these
cars as they age. They fixed it for under $100 and the car was fine from
then on. If you are near Dallas, I can recommend a place.

 

I'd agree with jim beam's advice that this sounds like wear in one or
more suspension components more than a caster issue. I'd also have the
tie rods and sway bar bushings looked at. My 90 CRX was exhibiting many
of the same symptoms you describe, particularly the instability and
"wallowing" at higher speeds, and replacing the (very worn/cracked) tie
rods/front sway bar bushings improved matters considerably.

Dave

 

Everything you describe are classic symptoms of over-inflated front
tires. Aggravated if rear are under-inflated. Find the sticker in
the car and try the tires at Honda's recommended inflation. What's
printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless
what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire
--"consult placard in vehicle" -- may tell you.

Simle things first! If that doesn't help go on the search for loose
parts. 1 degree of caster is not going to make or break handling.

Don
www.donsautomotive.com

 

What is on the side of the tire is the MAX pressure at MAX load. Read it.

Recommended pressures these days seem to be 30-35 psi. Many cars have
24-28 psi in their manuals to make a compliant ride.

-SP

 

dude, use the pressure in the manual - don't monkey about with guesswork
or "what the tire guy says". honda engineers know a good deal more
about the handling dynamics of their vehicles than the average rubber
slinger.

 

That's one of my biggest pet peeves with Fast-Lube and tire places these
days... The recommended pressures are right on the inside of the door.
What makes it so damned hard to follow them?

Every time I have an oil change done, I have to re-check all of the tires
to make sure they are not over-filled.

 

They have 24-28 in their manuals to avoid overinflation wear. Tire shops
tend to inflate every single tire to 32-35 psi so that they don't have to
bother with checking the manufacturer recomended pressure. If the tires wear
out faster, so much the better.

Keep in mind that it is *volume* that matters in having the tire of the
proper shape and to avoid over/underinflation wear. A car with more weight
will require greater pressure to achieve the same volume and, of course, a
car with less than the tire's maximum rated load will require less pressure.
Tire shops ignore this.

 

I just got a set of Michelins. Toyota says 30psi, the tire dealer put in
32. He said that the manufacturer's recommendation was to provide a
cushier ride, and that 32psi would give better wear. Hmmm...

What do you think of the chalk-line-on-the-tread method of determining
ideal pressure?

BC
pressured

 

BCDrums --

Not a lot. The only thing it'll show is that when rolling a short
distance straight, different parts of the thread have more or less
contact with the road. No relation to what happens at speed, during
braking or in corners.

Whenever I get a new set of tires on a car, I take half an hour to play:
starting with the manufacturer recommendation, then going up a bit, and
down a bit, front as well as rear. After every change a quick test ride
to check - you'll quickly find how much change is noticeable and what it
does.

Playing around a bit (while never going too far from manufacturer
recommendation and thoroughly ignoring tire dealer input) helps find
your best compromise of ride and roadholding.

cu
.\\arc

 

"AZ Nomad" wrote

A million years ago, when I hung out in my dad's tire store, I looked up
tire pressure recommendations in a thick booklet produced by, I think,
General Tire. Their pressure recommendations for a given tire for a given
model of car were different from what the car manufacturer recommended. I
never understood that written difference. In any event, 28 lbs per tire was
the norm.

 

FWIW, I gave up playing around a while ago. Now I use a tire tread
depth gauge ($2 or $3 at any auto parts store) to help me figure out
the highest pressure (for max. mpg) consistent with even wear across
each tire. I measure the tread every 5,000 mi. or so at three places on
each tire (inside, middle, outside) and adjust pressure accordingly.

I've been doing this for about 20 years and have to say the resulting
tire pressure is NEVER the OEM's suggested value. My tires are from 4
to 8 psi above (but never exceeding the max. inflation value provided
on the sidewall) the car's suggested pressure. The actual value will
vary with tire brand/type, driving style and ride characteristics.

YMMV

 

I have been doing exactly the same thing for about 15 years. I check it
every 5,000 miles when rotating the tires. My gauge was a freebee from a
Michelin dealer 20 years ago. The right answer to get even wear on the
tires is always 4 to 7 pounds more than the door sticker. The handling
characteristics of the cars usually improves vs. running them at the door
sticker number as well. Except for the '91 240sx (a fairly light car), the
right answer has generally turned out to be 33-35 PSI. 31 does it on the
240sx.

 

but all this assumes tire wear is unaffected by suspension dynamics. it
may "work" on old solid axle vehicles where camber and thrust angles are
not constantly changing, but that's not the case with a 4-wheel
independent, wishbone, deflection compensated honda. all these factors
mean tire edges wear faster. that's why modern sport tires already have
feathered tire edges. over-inflating to make tire wear "look" better is
kind of not the point.

 

The tires don't look better, they wear longer and deliver better mpg
under normal driving situations. Accords and Civics are not set up for
high performance driving from the factory; they're commuter cars.

 

regarding wear and mpg, with radial tires, that's not true like it used
to be with bias ply. provided pressure is in the right range, rubber
compound will have more effect on mpg than air pressure.

regarding "commuter cars", sure, they're not "performance" vehicles from
factory, but they sure do handle better than any other vehicles in their
class from factory. or at least, the wishbone ones do.

 

you sure they replaced strut's?? because it sounds like a bent strut or
a tire pull..caster is not a tire wearing angle...but it is a pulling
angle...
to check to see if its a tire pulling switch right to left front tires
good luck....

scrapper....