Cost of a loose gas cap? $86.00 USD according to my dealership

There I was, on the way home from the airport Thursday night after a week
out of town on business when my 'check engine' light comes on (2000
Accord).... I immediately dial up the dealership, where they advise me to
bring it in asap. I tell them Ill drop it off that night at the key drop so
they could look at it the next day. When I arrive at the house from the
airport and exit the car, I smell gas fumes, so I pop the gas latch and the
gas cap is very loose, almost a quarter turn loose in fact. I tighten it up
and noticed (unbelievably for the first time) the written warning on the gas
cap that a loose cap will set off the engine light..... well, I think to
myself, there's the problem. But being a little paranoid, I decide to take
the car into the dealership in any case. When I drop off the keys, I write
on the form that the engine light came on but soon afterwards I noticed the
cap was loose.... This morning and the tech called me and told me that they
hooked the car up 'to the computers' and everything was cool, that it was
the gas cap that set off the engine light.

Fast forward to this evening when I go and pick the car up..... and to my
complete amazement, they charged me $86 dollars for the diagnostic test.
Mind you they did no actual work, just ran the test. I was livid. I
couldn't believe that they charged me almost a hundred dollars to tell me
that my gas cap was loose (note that I bought the car at this
dealership).... don't get me wrong, Im all about compensating someone for
their time, but I called an independent Honda shop where even they were
shocked at this price, and told me they would have probably not charged me
anything, maybe the standard $30.00 fee if I wasn't a regular customer (i.e.
didn't have anything else done).

Question: Am I off base to be upset here? I have calls into the tech that
did the 'test' and the manager of the service department for some kind of
explanation. It would seem that they could have reasoned that it was the
loose cap that tripped the light (since I wrote it down for them), reset the
light and fired up the car. No light = problem solved. Light comes back on
= a different problem, therefore testing required

Yes, I know, it was stupid to take it to the dealer and I have learned my
lesson, but it still stings pretty bad. I am a huge Honda fan, but this has
soured me a little.... funny thing is that we were going in to look at
Odysseys at that dealership this weekend, not now.

brian drake
charlotte, nc

 

/////snipped////



CAVEAT EMPTOR!


don't know what that means? put those two words in a
search engine and start reading the results.


Dee

 

I'm sure the tech appreciates your attitude.

 

Well I am going to side with Honda on this one. Personally I do my own work
and if a check engine light comes on I will get the code and troubleshoot it
with the Honda service manual I bought.

I do think a little common sense should have prevailed here and those
without common sense, even for a moment, pay for it out of their wallets
generally.

Now if you were stranded in the middle of nowhere and all you needed was a
couple gallons of gas, how much would you pay for that gas. What is the
highest amount of money you would pay to get you back on the road and safely
home? Probably quite a bit. I would be willing to bet it would be a lot
more than the actual cost of 2 gallons of gas. The dealership gave you
peace of mind by saying your car was ok.

So now you take your car in that your obviously VERY worried about, the
dealership thinks it probably is the cap but what if they send you out after
clearing the light and the light comes on again for something else? You
would be pissed as hell. The dealership did work on your car by hooking it
up to a computer and checking the system. They probably also wiggled and
jiggled a few things under the hood to cover their butts in case something
else was wrong.

If you knew there was a loose gas cap and the gas cap says make sure it
isn't loose because a light could be triggered then I think everybody is
even.

CaptainKrunch

 

Yeah, $86 for a check engine light is quite a bit. Maybe prices have
gone up since I last took my car in to a dealership, but the last time I
did I spent only $40. This was at a Saturn dealership.

If you have any AutoZone stores in your area, they can check the service
engine light for you for free...provided they have the equipment.

-AGS

 

*All* AutoZone stores in the USA have an OBD-II compatible scan tool and
can read and interpret the codes from any vehicle 1996 and newer. And yes,
they will gladly do it for free. However, not everyone that works there
knows how.... (altho it's pretty simple).

and yes, $86 is certainly on the high side. But then maybe it was only
$59.95 but he got zapped with the bullshit "shop supplies" charge and of
course the obligatory sales tax.

 

Yes, I know, it was stupid to take it to the dealer and I have

so what you are saying is that the tech's time and the dealerships
time is worth nothing. the fact that you left your gas cap loose is
not their problem, it's yours! and it should cost you. that piece of
equipment they read your codes with is called the HDS and costs them
about 6000.00. it has to get paid for. what line of work are you in
by the way????
Chip

 

No, Chip; that's not how it works. Nor is that how it *used* to work.
Here's how it *did* used to work. When you had a problem, you took it
to someone you trusted to be competent, and trusted not to **** you too
hard on the cost. If they couldn't diagnose the problem, they didn't
charge you. If they did diagnose the problem, they told you what it
was. If you couldn't get it fixed right then, you didn't; you would
usually pay some sort of fee for the diagnosis at this time, or you left
with the understanding that when you did get it fixed, you would do it
at that shop. They trusted you to be fair and honest with them.

If you did get it fixed right then, you did it there; you trusted them
to be fair and honest with you.

If there wasn't any actual problem, say something like the problem
outlined by the originating poster of a loose gascap, they told you, you
said thanks, and went home. When you had a problem in the future, you
remembered how you were treated and took it back to the same shop.

No one's time or labor is thought to be worthless; you have working
people who trust the shop to be competent, fair and honest, and you have
repair shop personnel who trust that their customers will recognize
value received and become satisfied, repeat customers.

In contrast, I was charged $279 not long ago for an oil change, tire
rotation, and a list of 'inspections' which took roughly six minutes to
perform on my Odyssey, by the Honda shop. Unfortunately, there is only
one in my area, and no one else I trust to do these inspections.

It's free enterprise, of course; I don't have to take my Honda there for
service. But it isn't right, not by a long shot.

I know you asked Brian this question, but I'm going to answer; I have a
company that services computers, and does networking and other
computer-related work (www.wetumpkatechnology.com). Not long ago, I was
called to a law office to diagnose a computer problem. Although I spent
two hours, I was unable to determine the cause of the problem. My
hourly rate is $90, but in this case I chose not to charge even the $35
rate I charge just to show up. I told them that I didn't find, much
less fix, the problem. I told them (well, wrote down for them) what to
say to the manufacturer to take the next step in resolving it.

That law firm has become one of my best customers; I have worked on
their systems, and worked on the home PCs of some of the employees as well.

Because they trust me not to **** 'em over on the price, and not to
bullshit with them. Because I took a chance and didn't charge them when
I couldn't help them.

This economic model works; older people will tell you that that's how it
used to work all the time. It still does - or can.


RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen

 

Attn to Dave Kelsen-->Best response I've seen on a newsgroup in a long time
I agree 100% with your views.
I still remember the time a long time ago a "DRL" (Daytime Running Light)
error message appeared on the dash of my wife's Nissan Sentra. This was
when they were first being introduced to the regular market. I (falsely)
assumed it was an electrical problem and brought it to the Nissan dealer.
15 minutes later I was given a bill of around $40. ($15 light bulb, $20
labour + taxes). Yep. They actually charged me $20 for changing a light
bulb. I know I should have checked the damn bulb first and it was stupid of
me, but I wasn't thinking. Anyways, I paid the bill, but NEVER returned to
the dealership for service again. My next car was a Honda because I was so
upset over the bill despite the fact I was pleased overall with that little
Sentra. It's that type of gouging that turns people off. EVERY single
mechanic my father ever dealt with would have replaced the bulb, laughed
at/teased him for missing the obvious and ONLY charged for the part.
I know businesses don't make money by doing everything for free. But
common sense would/should let a service manager know when to let the little
things slide for nothing. But then again, common sense would/should have
told me to check the damn bulb in the first place


http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/desjar

 

I'm in the banking / finance business. As I said in my original post, I
believe that some type of compensation was due since it did take up some of
their time, but 86.00 is excessive to the point of robbery plus I thing they
could have reset the light for me and sent me on my way without all the
testing (since I told them what happened). 6000.00 doesn't seem like very
much to me for a piece of diagnostic equipment, but assuming your right,
that means that at those outragous prices, they could pay off the machine in
roughly 69 loose gas cap visits, and the rest is profit (not including labor
costs).

Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
remember this being a Union shop in the past. I am told by some that the
dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
issue such as this takes 30 min to work on..... so they rip me a new one on
the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
expensive lesson.

 

My dealership would have done that. However, I have a long standing and
very good relationship with my dealer.

Had I gone to someone I don't know, I would expect to pay him for his
time as we have no relationship at all. That's just the business world.

Do YOU have a good and long standing relationship with this dealer?

 

Dude, you need to get out more. This is how dealerships work, and have
worked forever. Not only dealerships, but all auto repair.

The book says the repair takes X amount of time. You pay for that.
You're bitching that the guy took less time than that, yet you paid for
the book rate. Hey, this is what promotes good technicians; they might
work an 8 hour day, but get paid for 11 or 12 hours worth of work. If
they're good, they deserve to be recognized for that.

Let's turn that around, shall we? Let's suppose you got the shop
doofus, who took X + 3 hours to do the work. If you're paying for
ACTUAL time, you just paid for the fact that you got a newbie, a guy
who's struggling to find his way around the shop and around your car.
Why didn't I get the one good guy in the shop, you're asking yourself.
But hey, you were the one who wanted to pay ACTUAL time spent, right?

The flat rate protects you from the unexpected and from morons, and it
promotes the good technicians and keeps them there and gives huge
incentive for them to stay good technicians.

You can bitch about the flat rate all you want, but if it weren't flat
rate--if you paid for the actual time the tech spent in front of your
car--you'd be bitching about that, too.

If you're going to bitch about auto repair, then fix it yourself. Do
some reading ahead of time, and know that a loose gas cap is the VERY
FIRST thing you check when you see the check engine light--and that the
light will go out on its own once you fix the loose gas cap. You didn't
take the time to understand this--shoot, it's in the owner's manual, and
it's obvious you never even read that--so you pay someone else for that
knowledge as needed.

Is that so hard to understand?

Do you frequently go to places that give their time and expertise away
to some random Joe who walks in the door, some guy they've never seen
before? Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
walk in the door?

 

If people pay for it, it's right.

People pay five bucks for a cup of Starbucks coffee. That isn't right,
not by a long shot. Are you suggesting that Starbucks ought not to be
allowed to charge that for a cup of coffee?

If people are willing to pay it, there's nothing wrong with charging it.

 

It works for me all day long at my favorite Honda dealership. But we
have a relationship that goes back over 20 years.

When some random Joe walks in the door, someone they've never see before
and therefore never expect to see again, it's a crap shoot. They can do
it your way, and probably never see the guy again--in fact, read
postings on the Usenet about how "I screwed that stealer, he gave it to
me"--or they could do it by the book.

Given the number of people who have serious attitudes about dealership
service, it's probably prudent nowadays for the dealer to charge in
those circumstances. The dealership is better off waiting to see if a
customer will be a long term customer, and then take care of him. It's
probably not prudent for the dealer to give stuff away and hope that
such a gesture is meaningful, in this day and age of people inherently
distrusting the dealership for no reason other than "it's the
stealership, what did you expect".

 

Well, only if you have no other costs in running a business. I'll assume the
machine was solar powered, sitting in the middle of an public field.


How long did it take for the diagnosis?

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.

What you did was essentially offer a teaser rate.

So too does the economic model that a person's time is worth money. I don't care
if a person is a doctor, a lawyer, a plumber, a nurse, or a car technician.

If shops are now charging time for attempting to diagnose a problem without
solving the problem, they are merely taking a cue from the so-called white
collar professions that have been doing this for years.

No white collar professional has grounds to complain.

 

So, as you say, try another dealer...

Good luck with that! ;-)

You're killin' me.

Blue collar workers have as much a right to find ways to make money as white
collar workers. If this means using collective barganing, so be it. (OTOH I am
doubtful Honda technicians being union members is the rule.)

AFAIC, white collar workers often use similar means. CEOs and University
presidents will say, "So-and-so at Institution X is making this much. You want
to keep me: Pay me the same as Instititution X." What's the extra money for?
Nothing but what the market will bear.

Cost setting by dealerships is completely rational. They're all supposed to use
the same Honda service labor hour manual for jobs. If a technician can make the
repair faster, he's accordingly rewarded. If not, he loses.

This is unlike doctors, attorneys and I imagine various people in financial
services who have highly variable rates for the same service.

Which approach is more fair?

Also, shops these days all seem to advertise their minimum diagnosis charge.
Some or all states require this, IIRC.

Yup. See if you can find a dealer shop that's better. I suspect that will be a
challenge.

 

Hear hear.

Then more so-called white collar professionals might have a better understanding
of how stupid they are; that their careers are built on a house of cards.

I'm not going to be nice. Too many white collar professionals do not have real
skills. They're paid fat salaries because someone years ago manipulated the
market with some cerebral leger-de-main and convinced people that they had some
magical ability that warranted them earning a lot more per hour than others.
That's life, but there are recourses, from collective bargaining to voting for
your preferred political candidate.

Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor into how
much a person makes, as a rational economic matter. So if it costs $200,000 to
make a medical doctor (whereas a car technician gets his education for maybe
less than $5000 all told), then the MDs' time after graduation should be more
valuable.

But as far as I can tell, MD hourly rates already far exceed car technician
rates.

snip

You said it.

How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it says
a lot about their "education."

 

Hmm.

I would have thought rational economics would have compensation based on
value to client, not cost to provider.

 

You can always tell exactly what something is worth, down to the penny. The
value of an item is exactly what the person selling it for can get for it.