CRV or Element???

I was at an auto show last year and sat in a new CRV and about a week ago I
sat in a new Element at my Honda dealer showroom. The Element had a more
rugged feel, but seemed cumbersome and hard to manuever by the layout. The
CRV seemed cozy, almost car like. I feel like getting a CRV next time, but
wanted to know some opinions. I live in New England and if we have another
winter like last winter, I will definitly consider the CRV or the like. We
get heavy rains, peasoup fog, blizzards and have poorly lit, windy and hilly
roads, so the need for a safe and capable car/suv is vital in my eyes. I
want a 4 wheel drive and then I was thinking has anyone driven the CRV
without ABS and if that would be a bad idea or not because it already has 4
wheel drive?

Right now I have a Civic, but feel a little uneasy when winter comes, so
thats why I was thinking about an suv.

Thanks,

Al

 

I have a 2002 CR-V EX and live in Montreal. Very satisfied by the CR-V's
winter performance.
Then to answer your ABS question, the AWD will not help you when you brake.
As matter of fact, the AWD disengages when you brake.

 

i bought the element a few months ago. this thing is the mos maneuverable
vehicle that i have ever driven! the view out in any direction is superb.
the layout of the driver controls are an issue if you have big hands. my
hands hit the windshield wiper stalk on occasion. the tilt wheel gets in
the way of the speedometer when it is all the way down. this is more of an
issue with my height and the way i have the seat height set.
the AWD. hmm... i am a little disappointed so far with it. they call it
'real time four wheel drive'. the power goes to the front wheels until they
slip, then they send a little power to the back. i haven't driven it in the
snow yet, but i have driven it hard in the rain. very nice in the rain. i
drove it down a gravel road and tried to imitate [insert your favorite Rally
Cross Champion]. it seemed to spin the front tires nonstop. i think the
threshold of front tire spin to rear tire power input is a little too large.
i would have liked to see the power go to the rear tires a lot sooner. it
seems to me that, in the snow, you could theoretically get stuck until you
mashed the gas pedal.

well, just some thoughts. maybe i am wrong on all counts!

 

I'll assume you are not a driving enthusiast who wants to do it for
himself. There are bunches of things here 4 wheel drive (full time
and as required), traction control, ABS, stability control.

All cars have differentials that allow the inside and outside tires
turn at appropriate speeds when turning without scruffing.
Traditional off road 4 wheel drive locked the front and back tires
together, so eventually you got "torque buildup" on the street because
the tires want to turn at slightly different speeds (they aren't
exactly the same circumference). Bumping around on dirt roads, this
is no problem. On the street this is a big problem. Full time street
4 wheel drive puts a differential between the front and back tires.
But you are not done yet. If one tire has poor traction and is
spinning more power gets sent to it, just the opposite of what you
want. So "limited slip differentials (LSD)" were created.
Positraction (tm), dude! Traction Control in general also ensures
that under acceleration all the driven tires get power when slipping
occurs. Dynamic Stability Control can decrease fuel to the fuel
injection (limit acceleration) and control all 4 wheel brakes
independently. With independent brake control, the computer can steer
the car any which way it wants. I've only engaged the DSC on my BMW
from too high cornering speed a couple of times, but both times the
car went into a perfect 4 wheel drift. Luck or intent, who knows?
Great fun. DSC does limit acceleration when cornering all the time.
Very annoying to us car enthusiasts who love power on oversteer.
Anti-lock Brake Systems (ABS) allow you to brake at maximum rate
(threshold brake) and not just slide the tires. VERY IMPORTANT: You
can steer the car with ABS engaged and go around objects in your way.
This requires great skill without ABS. If you get ABS go to a parking
lot, get up to 30 mph, slam on the brakes, and practice steering the
car. Most people with ABS forget to steer and don't get what they
paid for. Many 4 wheel drive systems run in Front Wheel Drive 99% of
the time and only engage in low traction or emergency avoidance
situations. Then they engage the rear tires. Honda's system is like
this. So as not mis-represent this let me quote Honda:

"With its unique Real Time™ 4-Wheel Drive system, CR-V also has
all-weather performance capability. When the traction of all four
wheels are needed, such as on slippery roads, the system automatically
engages the wheels for maximum tire grip. Real Time™ 4-Wheel Drive is
a hydraulically actuated system that operates only when front-wheel
slippage occurs"

This is a long winded explanation to say that Hondas 4 wheel drive is
in no way the same as Subaru's full time 4 wheel drive (with LSD).
Anytime you are not driving a tire that has downforce(weight) you are
losing the opportunity for better traction.
Happy Motoring!
Roadie Roger

 

------------------------------------
Paul,
You said:

"the AWD disengages when you brake" I'm quite sure you won't find
that in any Honda manual. Since the Honda AWD system is self-contained
and self-regulating, there are no inputs (switches) or outputs (guages).
Unless they've redesigned the RealTime AWD system, you can still put a
2003 CRV into a four-wheel skid on ice by turning sharply and locking up
the rear wheels with the park brake. The differential will sense that
the rear wheels have stopped turning and force the front wheels to match
that speed (as much as possible). An engine stall could even occur if
the park brakes could be locked up tight enough (with manual
transmission).

In some ways, Honda AWD takes a lot of the fun out of winter for us fans
of 'burning donuts', and whatever the correct term for a 'park-brake
U-turn' is called.

'Curly'

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Okay thanks for the input. Personally I would like the ABS with what is in
the LX CRV but don't care about the sunroof and alloy wheels or cd changer,
so if it is available seperatly then thats an option, otherwise maybe I will
consider the element.

 

Really? How about the view through the B-pillars? I found that to be a
major annoyance, as I am tall enough that adjusting the seat for my legs
puts my head right next to the pillar so I have to lean forward to see out
the side of the vehicle and way forward to clear things for lane changes.

The CRV was better, but required some bobbing and weaving to see the entire
side view. Check them both for yourself before making any decisions!

Another consideration for real snow drivers is that the CRV has more ground
clearance than the Element. Neither of these are rugged underneath, but a
couple of extra inches are an important consideration when the snowplow
leaves a pile in front of your driveway.

 

I live in Toronto, and in the middle of one of the worst blizzards of
the year I had no trouble scaling a steep hill with 2-3' high snowdrifts.

A Jeep Cherokee behind me was NOT able to make it up.
He ended up turning around.

As far as ABS goes, it doesn't make any difference in snow.
In fact, it can even slightly increase your stopping distance.

What it *does* do is give you control. Consider slamming on the
brakes when your right wheels are over snow or wet slippery leaves
and the left wheels are on dry pavement. With a regular car, you'll
immediately spin around counterclockwise. With ABS, you come
to a perfectly straight stop.

My wife's driving instructor said that if you don't get any other
feature for your car, do get ABS. It means you don't have to worry
about modulating your brakes in an emergency. Just "stomp and steer".

You could also consider other "cute-utes" like the Subaru Forester
or Toyota RAV/4; I just found the CR-V the best bang for the buck.

Avoid the "real" SUV's, their handling is awful and they're gas pigs.

 

"the AWD disengages when you brake" I'm quite sure you won't find

Taken from www.honda.ca, just go to CR-V and follow the link about the
Real-Time 4WD:

Another big advantage of the CR-V's dual-pump Real TimeT 4WD system is that,
unlike conventional 4WD systems, Real TimeT 4WD automatically disengages
under braking, thereby allowing the ABS system to engage.

 

I live in Toronto, and in the middle of one of the worst blizzards of

Same here. Never had a slightest problem so far.
I do have 4 winter tires. I got 4 Uniroyals + 4 rims for 600$ CAN including
the taxes.
Very satisfied.

You don't want ot buy 1 of those unless you really need to haul something
really heavy.
I've driven a Ford Expedition 2003 Eddie Bauer and a Ford Explorer 2003
Eddie Bauer for several weeks:
heavy
hard to get around in the city
real gas guzzlers
handle like shit

 

http://www.honda.ca/HondaEng/Models/CR-V/benefitdetails.asp?section=Powertrain#RealTime%E2%84%A24WD

Paul, I'm wrong... It IS printed somewhere by Honda! I noticed they also
call it 'Real Time 4WD' and it used to be called 'Real time AWD'. I'll
have to wait a few more months to see if the part about the 4-wheel skid
has been changed in the newer model of the CRV. A close relative on
Vancouver island just bought one last week, and she gets pretty deep
snow on occasion..... Sorry I doubted you. :-(
--
'Curly'


To REPLY: You must remove two underscores from the return address to
reply directly . . . . . .

Regarding stage performances: When everyone else has finished playing,
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On the street, my Dodge Durango 4wd will screech and howl at anything
resembling a moderate turn on dry pavement. I don't know about driving in
a straight line long enough for something to build up, but I would think
that would be unnoticeable by comparison to the noises going around a
corner. I can also hear the scrubbing occuring while maneuvering on a
gravel driveway, but it is the gravel giving way, not so hard on the
rubber.

My Chrysler AWD was a fine vehicle in lots of different conditions, and I
wish I had waited one more model year to get AWD on the Durango, instead of
the 4WD, which is unused most of the time. The AWD delivered 90% FWD, 10%
RWD under non-slippage conditions, and refused to break traction under
mixed surface conditions. Whipping a U-turn on a rural highway with wet
roads, moderate snow on the shoulder, and at least one tire in mud was
impressive for my passenger, who didn't expect it to work well. I had
deliberately come to a hard stop with two tires off the pavement to show
off the ABS.

I'm looking forward to either the Jeep Liberty or Dodge Durango for 2004
which is supposed to have FWD-Electric, RWD-gas, for 25MPG and AWD/Hybrid
performance.

Oops... Looks like that's been cancelled, as Chrysler decides to make the
Durango bigger ;-(

 

SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle

 

I'm in the late 20's. I have a 2002 CR-V and love it. I woulnd't get the
Element, way too ugly.
And personally, I find the cargo space of the CR-V more convenient.
It's very easy to carry 2 bicycles and all the camping gear inside.