Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in 2002.
The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended if
either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
until we could get back to work. We figured the Honda employee wouldn't lie
so we signed the contract without reading it. If we had read it we would
have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered. We had
already told the Honda guy my wife was on permanent disability so she could
never be insured anyway, so the finance manager should have changed me to
the primary debtor so at least I would be covered and we wouldn't be paying
insurance premiums just to fatten Honda's wallet.

We are considering many courses of action but we would like a second or
thiird opinion before we decide what to do. For the record I have been
disabled for three months now and because Honda lied I have had to make a
$278 car payment every month after becoming disabled with no income other
than my wife's meager diability check. Honda told us the best they could do
is stop the insurance and give us our premiums back. That's not what we
want. I should have been covered and they should be making our car payments
now.

 

By your own admission you failed to read the contract, before signing the
document. That puts (in my opinion) you at fault, no one else.

 

That is commonly known as the most expensive insurance known to
mankind. It's also one of the hardest to collect on. Hell, by the
time you finish all the requirements to claim it you have usually
spent more money than you saved.

You signed a contract on a major purchase that you hadn't read and
obviously did not understand? You just basically admitted you are on
your own with zero recourse.

The primary debtor isn't based on the needs of your insurance company.
It's based on your credit, your ability, stability, and willingness to
pay, etc. If your wife is on a very limited disability income I find
it amazing that she was financed as the primary in the first place!

Honda did not lie. The dealership employee may be partially at fault,
but the major fault lies with your failing to understand the contract
that you entered into. Like it or not, you are at fault there. There
are certainly cheaper and more effective insurances for such occasions
(the duck comes to mind). Your basic course of action is to sit back,
smile, live, and learn... however, you have already achieved the only
really pleasant outcome below.

Honestly, they don't even have to do that. That is a very kind effort
on their part and if I were you I'd take it and run. Heck, apply it to
those payments.

Is that what you WANT or is that the contract you SIGNED? There is a
huge difference. I want a nice Ferrari 360 Modena Spider but I've
been happily living with my Miata's for years. (soon to be an S2k or
STi, not sure which yet)

 

I'm sure Honda didn't screw you.

The Honda dealer, though, is a different story. You do know, don't you,
that the Honda dealer is an independent businessman? He isn't Honda.
He just sells their cars--in a manner that makes him as much profit as
possible. Some dealers lie, cheat, and steal to do that. But that
doesn't have anything to do with the manufacturer.

Did you know he gets paid a commission on that crap? He's just another
salesman. Did you buy his products without knowing what they were or
how much they should cost?

You can *always* buy everything outside the car itself somewhere else.
You can buy the money somewhere else (the financing), and you should.
You can buy life insurance somewhere else, and you should. You should
never, EVER buy multiple things from the car dealer. He's there to sell
you the car, period.

So this guy wants to sell you insurance. Didn't a little bell go off in
your head, wondering why? Does your insurance guy try to sell you cars?

This would all be laid out in the contract. You read the contract
first; if you agree to the terms, you sign it. If not, you don't. If
you don't understand the terms, how can you possibly agree to it? If
you don't understand the terms, you shouldn't sign it until and unless
you do understand the terms.

Ohmigod. Because you're a rube straight out of the cornfield....

And this is someone else's problem? I don't think so. You started this
thread by calling this a deceptive trade practice; now it's just someone
smarter than you selling you something you never even bothered to TRY to
understand. That's not deceptive on his part. That's just plain STUPID
on your part.

Suck it up. Be a man. Admit to your mistake, learn from it, and move
on. But don't try to make it someone else's fault. Hell, you're not
even doing a very good job of *that*. You're tripping all over yourself
to admit that you were at fault, by doing something stupid yet perfectly
legal--you signed a contract without reading it.

Whether you read it or not is immaterial; under the law, you signed it
therefore you're beholden to it.

If wishes were horses. If I had hit that MegaMillions last week, I'd be
worth $200 million. So what?

If she can't be insured, then they won't issue the policy and you won't
have to pay anything. If they issue the policy and take your money,
then she's insured. Claim the disability and stop paying on the car.
When their insurance carrier investigates things, he'll find that they
never should have issued the policy in the first place. Worst case,
they'll deny your claim and revoke your policy--and you won't have to
pay anything.

Why do you sign contracts without reading them? Why do you buy
insurance from a car salesman? Do you buy ice cream from your plumber?
The two things are entirely unrelated, and you shouldn't do business
like that.

For what? What harm has come to you? If they're taking your money and
giving you a policy, you're insured. You bought the insurance, it's
yours. You got the product. If they don't issue the policy, then you
don't have anything to pay for and therefore don't owe anything on it.
No harm.

No harm. Got it? Either you're harmed, or you're not. The only way
you'd be harmed is if they take your money AND don't issue the insurance
policy. You DO know that insurance is regulated by your state, don't
you?

I'm still waiting for the part of your story whereby you filed a claim
under this insurance and were denied because you never had a policy. I
don't see that part of it. I can only infer, I can only read between
the lines, that your disability claim was denied 3 months ago. But you
don't tell us why.

But then again, maybe it wasn't denied. Maybe you never filed. Maybe
you just ASSUMED you wouldn't be covered, now you're crying in your beer
over a bunch of assumptions.

 

This is the only place I saw that may need attention. With most all
the manufacturers offering APR's lower than you can get even at your
credit unions you are often better off taking the manufacturer
financing. The trick to that is making sure you know what your credit
is before you go in and shop the car. Get the Automotive Beacon Score
from your credit union or something similar. If you are 700-720+ you
should qualify for just about everyone's best rates. The dealers as
well as the banks can try to make points (bumping an interest rate up
a little and getting a kickback for it) but they can't do that if you
know what your credit is and what rates you qualify for.

 

Well I see the error of my ways now, it was late and the store had closed,
the finance manager wanted to go home and so did I. At the time I didn't
even care my wife was listed as the primary debtor, I just wanted to sign
the papers and go home. I didn't even see why we needed a new used car. At
least our 1991 Plymouth Acclaim was fully paid for and it had a trunk you
could hide valuables in, unlike the tiny compartment under the CRV's back
mat. I thought to myself as long as I have a roof over my head and money to
pay my cell phone and cable modem bills I'm happy, so if she wants to see us
get screwed royally she will pay for it later. Now it is time to pay the
piper. Haha. But I still think I was deceived by Honda for agreeing to buy
disability insurance they knew we could never use.

 

no but he's got good crack

 

Well hang on, I have a few papers I'd like you to sign. Don't bother
reading them, it'd only waste your time. Sign here.

Repeat after me: you were never deceived by Honda. You didn't deal
with Honda. You dealt with an independent salesman, selling a product.

And it's not the salesman's job to determine whether or not you can or
will use a product. His job is to sell it to you. YOUR job is not to
be ripped off. It's no one else's responsibility to look after your
needs and take care of you.

The world doesn't owe you a living. The world doesn't owe you anything.

If you didn't have a driver's license, the salesman would still sell you
the car. It's not his responsibility to make sure you have a license,
can afford the gas and insurance and upkeep, and are physically able to
drive a car. His job is to SELL YOU THE CAR. He's not Honda; he's an
independent businessman. IT'S NOT UP TO HIM TO JUDGE WHY YOU WANT
SOMETHING AND WHETHER YOU'RE WORTHY OF HAVING IT. It's up to you to
judge whether you should buy the product or not.

You didn't do that. You signed the papers without reading them. YOU
are at fault. What's more YOU are the ONLY one here at fault. No one
else.

The way you keep saying "I was deceived by Honda" tells me that you
truly can't distinguish between the manufacturer of the product and the
independent businessman who sells you the product. Given that, what you
should do is take your concerns to a lawyer and have him argue with the
dealership that you are incompetent and therefore legally unable to
enter into contracts.

That's the only way you'll get out of this. It sounds pretty solid,
too--because you are unable to distinguish a manufacturer from a
dealer/businessman, and you sign contracts without reading them.

How did you manage to buy a home, anyway? My guess is that there's a
whole story behind that one--which you, no doubt, are claiming some sort
of deception.

 

This is the only place I saw that may need attention. With most all
the manufacturers offering APR's lower than you can get even at your
credit unions you are often better off taking the manufacturer
financing.[/QUOTE]

Usually, the manufacturer financing at those special rates requires that
you buy the car at full sticker price.

I can get financing at 3.99% now, off the street. (It was 3.49% for the
longest time, until a few weeks ago.) I'm then free to negotiate
whatever price I can negotiate, including rebates.

(remember, the deal is usually special APR *or* rebates, but not both.
The special APR is just a marketing gimmick, designed to get people's
attention. Woe be to the guy who doesn't follow through by analyzing
his entire costs in the deal.)

The only way to handle that is to get all the numbers up front and
crunch them.

 

A few questions and comments:

1.
Bob, so now you're disabled. Is it permanent? If so, won't you soon be receiving
disability along with your wife?

2.
Yes, the dealer's people lied to you. Yes, your outrage is at least somewhat
justified. But like the others said, I doubt you have legal recourse. What you
can do is tell your story all over town. This may humiliate (somewhat) the
dealer and teach others to read the contract before signing. If one cannot
understand a contract, yup, get a lawyer or seek some other, independent
resource to translate the contract for you.

3.
I think the dealer's offer to give you back the premiums is very generous.

4.
If you can't make the car payments, seek re-financing. I have read lenders tend
to be flexible when it comes to changes in people's circumstances. They want the
money to keep coming in, one way or another. Maybe it won't be the greatest
refinancing package, but you'll still be able to keep the car. Other newsgroups
might better be able to handle any queries you might have about re-financing
your car. Post again if you want suggestions.

 

No one knows if it's permanent or not yet. My doctor said I may recover
completely, but it may take a year or two to find out.

Friends I have and I know some of the best trial lawyers in Kentucky. I can
raise a ruckus if I need to do so. I decided to get a feel for the basic
inequity of the situation by starting here.

You could look at it that way, but isn't doing so an admission of "we should
not have led you to believe you would both be covered by this insurance"?

We can make the payments. We are just peeved that we were led to believe we
were both covered by the contract.

 

Caroline wrote:

[snip]

Why should he tell everyone his story? The dealer would not be
humiliated, Bob would. In his rush to get home, he did not read the
contract, which had to mention who was the insurance beneficiary and all
the circumstances that would allow claims against said insurance. The
burden never falls on the seller to ensure the buyer receives a fair
deal. Bob failed to look after his interests, and shifting even a small
part of the blame onto the dealer is undeserved.

This fact alone proves the dealer is extremely fair. Legally they would
be entitled to force Bob to pay the premiums untill the contract expires
(whenever that may be). But instead they allow him to terminate the
contract (an early termination clause may be stipulated in the contract,
but we will never know since he did not post it) AND they are willing to
refund him the money. If only all dealers would be this generous...

[snip]

Cosmin

 

Hmmmm,
Onus is on you. You did not read fine print yourself, you assumed verbal
statement. Very sloppy! I think the dealer is doing all it should.
You can sue the finance manager but where is the proof he said that?
He is not a Honda employee, he is an employee of the dealership(an
independent business)
Tony

 

I do hope you will get well again. That said, I must disagree with your
opinions regarding the Honda dealer who sold the insurance. As many
others pointed out, please note that the Honda dealer is a completely
different entity from Honda Corporation.

Making an ass of yourself is the only thing you will achieve by "raising
a ruckus". Talk to some lawyers, they will probaby point out the
complete lack of legal basis you have for your case.

Or maybe the dealer is trying to be nice to you. Giving up the premiums
you already paid may be outweighed by his hope you may purchase another
car from them in the future. If he is aware you won't do business with
him in the future, and he is still going to refund your money, then he's
one of the best dealerships I've ever heard of.

I am truly glad you are in a good financial situation. But I do not see
how you were led to believe both you and your wife were covered.
Whatever were the negotiations prior to signing the contract, their
final outcome is the contract itself. If the dealer said otherwise would
be immoral, however in a court only the written contract matters. And
the contract is definitely not on your side.

Cosmin

 

....top posting here!


Having bought approx 25 new cars/trucks in my 60 years, which
including 3 whereby I went to the dealer a few hours early...only to
find my NEW vehicle was in pcs because it was either "hit" by a wise
guy salesman, the engine had been blown by a dealer employee over the
weekend (a supercharged Tbird) and more things than I wish to
recall....the old saying "Let the buyer beware" always applies....
OK, you didn't do it...you didn't read the contractor understand it.

Were they nice....of course NOT...were you (oops sorry)
"stupid"...well, (again sorry)...YES.

There's an old saying..."Watch the new car salesman open the door for
you to your new car upon delivery...blocking the dent they put in".

My Dad was a part owner in a new car dealer years ago...and he tried
to eliminate many such things...but finally he too was frustrated!
It's the breeding of many (I say most) sales people and the way most
dealerships "guide their ways of doing buisness".

I'm not saying there are no "good" sales people or dealerships...but
they are absolutely a small percentage. YOU...and all
consumers...have to act (as you should) that you are the customer, and
it's your money...at least until you sign the contract.

The profit in dealership (generally) is NOT in the basic car sale
including FACTORY INSTALLED equipment. Rather in extended
warranties...which most try to tell you is from the MFG'r (most
arent't), add-on sun roofs, annd deals like yours.

Still, I feel bad for you...but the other poster is 100% correct.
Honda didn't screw you...but (maybe) the dealer did. READ THE
CONTRACTS & AGREEMENTS...don't be pressured. If you're not
sure...hell, ask for a copy (before you sign), and take it and go have
a cup of coffee and read it.

By the way, most of these deals (like yours, actually can be bought
elsewhere and certainly don't have to be bought at the time of
delievery.

I'll bet...if you read very closely...you'll find this "great payment
agreement" isn't even underwritten by Honda, no the primary
lender...rather some 1/2 -assed , flybynight company. Further, I'll
be that it's got language (like "only if you're sick due to mongolian
flu contract in december) that makes collecting really hard.

I feel "bad" for you....BUT the question is...Did YOU LEARN anythin=g
for the future? That applies to cars, things you purcahse at BestBuy,
etc etc.

I hope so.






++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Yep, you're dealing with the product of the liberal inspired, "I'm
entitled" generation where the fault is *always* laid at the feet of
someone else.

Personal responsibility is not part of the equation...

 

You could look at it that way, but isn't doing so an admission of "we should
not have led you to believe you would both be covered by this insurance"?[/QUOTE]

No.

 

You weren't "led" to believe anything.

Stop trying to make this an explicit act of someone else.

You LED YOURSELF into believing something, because you EXPLICITLY FAILED
to read the written contract that was right in front of your face. You
signed it without reading it. By your own admission, you signed it
without reading it.

You tell those Kentucky lawyers this story, exactly the way you told it
to us. See what their reaction is.

My father was a country lawyer. He had many good clients, many of them
good businessmen but also naive in so many ways. One day one of those
clients came to him with a sob story; turns out in a moment of weakness
and stupidity he had bought himself a time share. Now he was looking to
get out of it.

My father looked things over for a moment, and explained to this client
that he was liable for that contract. What was he thinking? He should
have known better than this. The client didn't want to hear all this,
but finally accepted it.

Please come back and tell us what these fine Kentucky lawyers have to
say. If they're over 55, they'll tell you you're stuck and that you're
an idiot. If they're under 55, they'll probably go on the
attack--regardless of the facts--and hope the finance insurance company
just wants to settle.

Tell us which way it goes. Either way, you're out some cash.

 

Usually, the manufacturer financing at those special rates requires that
you buy the car at full sticker price.[/QUOTE]

Not true. That would be listening to the guys at the dealership.
Besides, in many cases even if it were true you'd be better off
(though this applies mostly to the less expensive cars). The
manufacturer doesn't care how much you sell the car for as long as it
doesn't exceed 110-120% of the vehicles MSRP (per your credit).

If you end up with a less than 4% and can take a huge rebate along the
way, then go for it! In limited cases you can get both a decent
rebate and lower financing which can come out better at the end of the
day. Regardless of the above, you can still negotiate the price of
the vehicle. Remember, the dealership sets the final price, not the
manufacturer. Thank the 'fixed price laws' for that one. (remember the
Nintendo/Playstation fiasco's?)

That marketting gimmick seemed to be very very good to a great many of
my customers in the past. Heck, if you can get financing that saves
you $5,000-7,500 or a rebate of $2,500 which is the better way to go
if your credit qualifies you for it? Several manufacturers are
starting to use rebates AND special financing (Chrysler, Mitsu, etc).
They do have the catch that not everyone will qualify, but usually
it's not too difficult. All you have to do is make a habit of paying

That is true. If you can get them to show you the numbers both ways
you are good.

 

For the internet forum answer to your question, I think you'd be better off
consulting the newsgroups misc.legal and misc.legal.moderated . But again, this
would be only the "internet answer." Plenty of mediocrity and even incompetence
in so-called "professional" forums on the net.

Alternatively, you could google for info on contracts. What you describe
(someone verbally saying one thing about a contract but the written contract
saying something else) comes up a lot. My recollection is the courts by far tend
to side with what the written contract says. Why? Because every Tom, Dick, and
Harry could claim a salesman said one thing but the written contract said
another; give me money! This promotes chaos. (I'm not an attorney. I read a
lot.)

Maybe but IMO not necessarily. The dealer could say it was simply trying to
maintain good customer relations; it gives money back anytime a customer
complains.

misc.legal and misc.legal.moderated may see it both ways (yours and mine),
though.

I agree you should be peeved. At a minimum, by raising as much of a ruckus as
possible, the dealer might be more careful in the future.

Updates welcome. I think this is on-topic enough to continue here as you see
fit. Honda owners like to know how their car dealers are behaving.

Good luck with everything.