Disabling ABS

Is there any way to temporarily disable the ABS on a 2009 Accord similar to
the way the VSA can be shut off? Cars I've rented in the past (although
perhaps older) have had a switch to shut off the ABS but I can't find
anything similar on the Honda. Perhaps I'm kidding myself, but the Accord
seems to take an unusually long time to stop on snow and ice. I'd like to
see the change without ABS.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

 

Not sure what country you're in but I'm pretty sure that you were never
given the option of disabling the ABS on any car fitted for the American
market. I've never seen that "feature" on any US ride that I've driven
or owned and I've been driving long enough to have read "Coming in the
future, a system to prevent skidding in cars" in Popular Mechanic, and
for you real old timers.. Mechanix Illustrated<g>

Without putting on my coat and going outside to check one of several
owner's manuals for my current fleet, the only two suggestions I have are...

1. Take a look at the fuse block and see if there is a fuse
specifically for the ABS system.

2. DON'T remove it to try this. However, if you feel you must, practice
what the automotive advertising agencies do. Practice on a closed loop
track not on the public roads.

 

"experiment" with the abs fuse.

no, that is correct. abs stops you skidding - it's a popular
misconception that you stop quicker. you'll see a disclaimer to the
effect in the owners manual.

 

I've never seen a car of any make that provided a switch to turn off ABS.
What make was that?

I agree with you about ABS on ice & snow. It is decidedly worse. Long slow
stops gentle enough to keep the ABS from engaging are pretty much the only
way you can make it stop.

To disable ABS on a Honda, just pull the fuse. The ABS warning light will
stay on & you will have normal braking. Since VSA also depends on ABS in
its implementation, it will likely be disabled as well.

 

Good point. The purpose of ABS is to help the car maintain control
during panic stops, not necessarily to help the car stop more quickly.
In many instances, you may stop more quickly without it, but you may
also skid off the road because you can't steer.

Dan D
'07 Ody EX
Central NJ USA

 

Seems to me you need winter tires. My 2004 Civic stops well enough in snow
with ABS and winter tires.

 

ABS on ice and gravel and stuff like that is definitely NOT what it's
cracked up to be. People tend to take more chances, knowing that they've
got ABS, then they wonder why the car takes forever to come to a stop and
they end up rear-ending somebody, or landing in the ditch.

There is a tool for use in the prevention of skidding off the road because
you can't steer. It's called the "brain". Each human being comes from the
factory with one of those. Due to manufacturing tolerances, some are more
precisely finished than others, but all of them are functional to some
degree.

Rather than ABS, I prefer the use of the "brain", and other OEM human
features like "caution", "self-preservation", and "intelligence".

 

Perhaps I'm mistaken about having a "feature" to disable ABS on rental cars
I've used. That was my recollection but, since the rentals were generally
in the summer, there wouldn't have been a need to disable. After 40+ years
of driving without ABS, however, I've had my share of slips, slides, and
skids, and still felt more comfortable without ABS than I do now. To each
their own, I guess. It's nice to have the steering control so I can choose
between the ditch, the oncoming lane, or the car in front of me but I'd
prefer to be able to stop a bit more quickly and avoid all three. I imagine
winter tires could be an option, although I've never used them in the past.
Anyway, just a curiosity item. I actually thought the VSA/ABS would be a
good idea for winter driving and bought the Honda because none of the local
Toyota dealers had any Camry's on the lot with Toyota's (optional)
equivalent of VSA. Of course I hear that Toyotas have their own issues with
stopping . . .

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

 

AFAIK, you'll not find a car sold in America (other than vintage) that
is not ABS equipped with ABS. VSA (electronic posi-traction) is
selectable and not available on all cars (AFAIK) but they are two
separate animals.

In a panic stop mode, even with ABS, you retain control and steering. A
locked wheel skids and with a resultant loss of steering. A rolling
wheel gathers no moss and it also allows for continued maneuvering.

Universal introduction of ABS messed up a number of things in my life.
Former law enforcement, it removed a number of high speed/low speed
maneuvering options from my somewhat limited repertoire of "Hey, watch
this!"<g> and also made crash reconstruction more difficult and time
consuming since we rarely had tire marks to use for the calculation of
minimum speeds. That said, I still swear by FWD and ABS (both messed up
my stunt driving<g>) but I like them regardless.

Only car I have with RWD is my Corvette. After all, I'm not a fanatic
about FWD<g>

 

snip

Electronic stability control
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Electronic stability control (ESC) is a computerized technology that
improves the safety of a vehicle's stability by detecting and
minimizing skids. When ESC detects loss of steering control, ESC
automatically applies the brakes to help "steer" the vehicle where the
driver intends to go. Braking is automatically applied to individual
wheels, such as the outer front wheel to counter oversteer, or the
inner rear wheel to counter understeer. Some ESC systems also reduce
engine power until control is regained.[1] Electronic stability
control does not improve a vehicle's cornering performance; rather it
helps to minimize a loss of control. In the United States, NHTSA
estimates 5,300-9,600 traffic fatalities could be avoided if all
passenger vehicles were equipped with the feature.[2] According to the
IIHS one-third of fatal accidents could be prevented by the technology.
[3]

By 2012 all cars sold in the USA MUST have ESC. Most have ESC today.
And there's no switch to turn it off as there is in your (and my 2003)
Corvette.

 

Although the brakes will still work if you disable the ABS (for
instance by pulling the fuse), you will not have the equivalent of a
proerly designed non-ABS system. Most vehicles with ABS use the ABS to
provide proper balancing of the braking force between the front and
rear. Vehicles without ABS either include a mechanical proportioning
valve, or size the brakes to provide proper front to rear brake
balance. Since ABS equipped vehicles usually use the ABS to provide
the front to rear brake balance, if you disable the ABS you are more
likely to get in a situation where the rear brakes lock first. Cars
often spin when the rear brakes lock first. Properly designed non-ABS
systems are designed to have the front brakes lock up first. When this
happens, the car usually plows straight ahead. Plowing straight ahead
is usually preferred (and safer) than spinning.

Ed

 

"Tegger" wrote

This has been my first winter driving on snow in 35 years. Even the initial
coating from a developing snowstorm sent me sliding. I did not know what to
expect. Scared to death, I knew to just slow down at least so that I
wouldn't have to use the brakes so much. When I did have to brake, it was
slowly and gently. ABS didn't help one bit, and it activated much sooner
than it ever did when driving on dry pavement. So I prefer the good ol'
controlled-driving method.

My 2004 Accord sedan of course doesn't have the newer electronic stability
what's-it-called, and I debated whether or not to buy a set of snow tires,
but I declined... this year.

Howard in upstate NY

 

Or when the driver lifts off the gas in a vehicle with rear-driven wheels.
This is functionally equivalent to activating the rear brakes only; in
slippery condictions, this is virtually begging for trouble.

Which is also why most road cars' handling is set up for understeer.

 

Wrong. On a Honda, you get exactly what you would have without ABS.

 

How do you know that? Are all the parts exactly the same, except they
insert an ABS pump in the hydraulics? Is this comment even meaningful,
since now most (all?) Hondas include ABS as standard?

I looked at the parts catalog for older Hondas and at least in some
cases the master cylinders and proportioning valves are different
depending on whether you got ABS or not. For instance a 1996 Honda
Civic 2Dr EX without ABS used Proportioning Valve P/N 46210-S04-962
(see http://tinyurl.com/ygprxny , line 4). A 1996 Honda Civic 2Dr EX
with ABS got Proportioning Valve P/N 46210-S04-852 (see
http://tinyurl.com/yf9ms3f , line 4).

It can be advantage to use the ABS to handle the brake balance. ABS
can adapt to the vehicle load and provide maximum braking force for
all four wheels (please note you could just use rear wheel only ABS to
provide the enhanced proportioning function). If you depend solely on
proportioning valves and/or brake size to handle the chore, it is
likely your rear brakes aren't doing all they could if you vehicle is
loaded to the max. This is probably not a big deal in most passenger
cars, and when it is some non-ABS vehicles compensate for the lack of
ABS by adding a rear proportioning valve (a dump valve of sorts). This
valve has an activating link tied to the rear suspension. Under severe
braking the rear end of a lightly loaded vehicle will raise up more
than the same vehicle when heavily loaded. The mechanically activated
proportioning valve takes advantage of this difference. When the rear
of the lightly loaded vehicle raises up under braking the link between
the suspension and the valve will activate the valve and limit rear
brake application to prevent rear wheel lock up. It is not as
effective as ABS, but it does allow the rear brakes to be larger to
handle heavy loads while reducing the chance of rear wheel lock-up
when the vehicle is lightly loaded. If you are interested in seeing
what one looks like see:

http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-11154-1241200861_thumb.jpg .

Ed

 

Four ABS equipped Hondas/Acuras & the FSM for each is how I know. What
Hondas do you have experience with?

Note I am only commenting on the ABS. The VSA (vehicle stability assist)
adds a level of complication to it and since the two are integrated on the
newer Hondas, I suspect the overall effect of disabling it will be like
stepping back 20 years (I still remember how the '86 Aerostar would lose it
in the back if you just looked at it funny. That was one scary vehicle if
the road was the least bit slippery).

Interesting you should pick out a '96 for the discussion as I owned a '96
Odyssey and my daughter had a '95 Integra that used the same system. ABS in
'96 Hondas is a passive system that did not routinely regulate anything
until and unless a wheel sensor asked for it. It certainly did not
participate in routine proportioning of the rear brakes. The part
differences you found relate to the way the ABS system was spliced into the
main brakes.

The ABS that Honda used in '96 was so problematic and expensive to repair
that I suspect it no longer works in most of them that are still on the
road. It failed in my '96 Odyssey and in my daughter's '95 Integra within a
few months of warranty expiration and the $1500+ repair cost meant that it
stayed that way. There was (is - the Odyssey is still on the road) no
difference in braking feel or performance in either of those cars vs.
anything else I ever drove. Certainly no tendency for the rear brakes to
lock up on either one of them.

 

1997 Civic. I still have the shop manual but the car is gone.

Did you actually try to lock the brakes? The difference would only
become apparent under severe braking. The ABS doesn't provide
proportioning in the same manner as a proportioning valve. It handles
it by relieving pressure to the rear brakes when rear brake slip is
detected. Traditioanl proportioning valves operate differently. Except
for the type with a mechanical control like I showed in one of my
prior posts, they just provided a fixed split between the front and
rear brakes. I wonder how the ABS and fixed proportioning valve
interact.

Since the ABS system still includes a proportioning valve, it seems
that Honda soes not depend on the ABS operation to provide
proportioning. Others do.

Ed

 

Absolutely. As the ABS was showing signs of failing, that was one of the
TSBs relating to that vintage ABS - exercise the ABS and sometimes it would
clear and start to work again.

Once the ABS stopped working altogether no amount of exercise would make it
start working again. Neither car ever locked the rears first, always front
first.

 

Fear can be a good thing in unfamiliar territory, Howard. Like Tegger
says, the brain is the most important component in driving.

That said, you have to understand that the ABS system is designed to
keep the wheels rotating no matter how hard you press down on the brakes
while retarding (braking) the wheels rotation. It basically wants to
"lock up" the wheel and then back off just enough so that it will
continue to rotate slightly.

Rotating wheel can be controlled. Locked wheel is like a snow disk or
saucer (remember those?), it goes wherever it damn well pleases
depending upon the resistance it meets. It couldn't care less where YOU
want it to go.

Since the coefficient of friction on ice and snow is so much less, even
slight pressure on the brake will bring the ABS system into play much
more quickly than on dry or even wet pavement. All that means is the
system is working as designed.

Try this: Next time you have some decent (if there is such a thing)
snowfall, find yourself a nice clear parking lot with lots of room and
no cars. Run it up to 15-20 m/h and stand on the brake pedal, feel the
ABS kick in and stay in, and steer the car where YOU want it to go.

Now, find the fuse or relay for the ABS system and pull it and repeat
the experiment.

I think you'll put the fuse/relay back in place and marvel at the advent
of ABS.

ABS takes some getting used to. There's no doubt about it. This would
be especially true in your case since you haven't driven on snow/ice in
35 years and, probably, have been fortunate enough and attentive enough
to have ever stood on the brakes on dry or wet pavement.

When ABS was being integrated into the US car lines, there were a LOT of
very serious crashes in the law enforcement community - not just in snow
and ice but dry pavement as well. Many of us "old dogs" had been
trained to USE a skidding car (ours) to advantage in certain maneuvers.
Lack of transitional training, reliance on old tricks that no longer
work with ABS in place, were a recipe for disaster.

That's no longer the case.

FWD with or without the stability control is the cat's ass in snow. New
snow tires probably won't make much difference in your driving
experience as far as braking goes, but could do wonders for your
acceleration off the line. I notice one heck of a difference in deep
snow between my '06 Accord (kinda sucky) and my wife's '05 Odyssey
Touring (might as well be AWD) but really, that's only in accelerating
and going through unplowed streets, etc. Stopping? Same old, same old
no matter which one I'm driving.

 

Of course it did. It activates as soon as your wheels lock up.
That's the point. It will ALWAYS activate quicker on wet, icy or
loose pavement much faster than it would on dry pavement.

First, buy a set of Blizzak's for the winter. They will grip in the
snow much better. Then, take the car to a big empty parking lot, and
beat the hell out of it until the braking becomes second-nature. It
really is nice once you're used to it, IMO. It provides much better
control when braking on icy roads.