Distributor Bolts / Ignition Timing - '91 Civic Si

Hello,

I finally coughed up the money and bought a timing light. I am using
the directions in my Helm manual My timing is significantly off on my
car which has 130k miles. Looking downward, the 3 marks (made bright
silver with a ball-point pen) on the crank pulley are above the pointer
by at least twice the width of the 3 marks. Are there 2 deg. between
each mark? I am just hoping I didn't jump a tooth on my timing belt.
I tried loosening the distributor bolts so I could adjust the timing,
but I couldn't find a good fit with my sockets and wrenches. The bolts
seem like they are really tourqued on there. My 12mm tools seemed to fit
the best, but there was significant play when turning the tools back and
forth lightly against the bolts. Do I have bad tools or is there a
certain size wrench that I should look for?

Thanks for any help,

Mark

 

Any reason to suspect this?

Yes, the bolt heads are 12 mm.

Two suggestions:
1) Squirt a little "PB Blaster" penetrating oil on the bolts. Let this sit a few
minutes. Then try again. Places like Autozone, Napa, Checkers, and Wal-Mart sell
PB Blaster. Amazing stuff.

2) On the two lower mounting bolts, use a 12 mm socket. The socket should have
less play.

Admittedly for the top distributor mounting bolt I think one is stuck using an
open end wrench or a box wrench. Maybe try getting an adjustable crescent on
there.

The bolts shouldn't be that tight. I can't find the exact torque spec. for them
right now, but other 12 mm head mounting bolts (8 mm nominal diameter) for the
91 Civic's engine are tightened to 17 ft-lbs. That's not much torque.

Of course, someone could have overtightened them.

You do plan to jumper the ignition timing adjusting connector, don't you, per
the Helm manual, before making adjustments, right?

Also, do you have any idea what the idle speed is?

Gotta check the timing at the appropriate RPM. If everything's set right, this
will occur after the car is warmed up. You're checking the timing after the car
has warmed up, right?

 

Hey,

Thanks for the very thorough reply Caroline. The reason I mentioned the
timing belt is because my car seemed to drive well since I got it at
120k miles, and has recently, abrubtly developed some unpleasant
problems. The car lost power in general and has excessive engine noise
if you accelerate too quickly at low RPM's. I get the terms pinging and
knocking mixed up, but the noise is some sort of ignition not happening
at the right time noise. The idle is noticeably rougher too. I have
checked and replaced some components in the igniton system which seemed
to help a tiny bit. Another reason why I mentioned the timing belt is
because the timing seemed way off, although I didn't make a decent
quantitative observation of how far off it was. Does timing just go way
out of spec over time? I would have no idea the last time the timing has
been checked.
When checking my timing I jumpered the connecter under the passenger
side dashboard, let the car warm up at least until the cooling fan came
on, and the idle was reading 750 RPM on the tach on the instrument
panel. Is there a way to know for sure if my jumper has worked? I just
used some old scrap of wire I had around. I think its got a nice tight
connection.
I'll have another go at those bolts after spraying them with some sort
of penetrating oil. They've gotta be tourqued more than 17 ft.*lbs.
Mayble I'll see if I can find a really nice 12mm open end wrench and
socket. I am suspecting I may have to adjust the idle as I adjust the
timing because I have made adjustments to the idle since I got the car,
and the car still had a sort of wax seal over the idle adjusting screw
when I got it.

Mark

 

Chopface,

First and foremost, you say the middle-most mark of the three marks does not
line up with the pointer by some 8 degrees or so. (Four degrees are covered by
the three marks, and you say it's off by two of these widths.) So the car's
timing appears to be definitely off. Could it cause the symptoms you describe?
My Chilton's Honda Civic manual replicates almost exactly the symptoms you
describe when the timing is incorrect.

So the first thing I'd do if this were my car is get those distributor bolts
loosened and try to put the timing back in spec. Eight degrees seems "fixable"
by rotating the distributor housing, based on my experience and rough memory of
fooling with the housing once to see how far out of spec I could move the three
marks. (Try it.)

How the timing on your car got so far off is a good question. Computer (ECU)
problems? I don't know but look forward to the pros diagnoses.

For the record here: When was the last time (in miles and years) you had a new
timing belt put on the car?

Answers to your other questions follow.

Updates very much welcome.

Not in my 154k miles and 13+ years experience with my 1991 Civic LX.

I think the timing's been checked exactly three times on my car. (Twice by a
shop, once by me.)

Also, I don't think the valve lash (= clearance) has ever been changed. It's
been checked twice (once by me).

750 RPM is my 91 Civic LX's correct idle RPM, too. So you seem on track.

I'm not certain, but I think if and when you get that distributor loose, and
then adjust it, and the car seems to try to correct your adjustment, then it's
not jumpered correctly.

But no jumper is necessary if you're just doing a check. It's when you start
adjusting the distributor's rotation that the jumper must be in place. I suspect
if your jumper is somehow incorrect, it will be obvious.

Folks here talk about just using a paper clip, so your scrap sounds fine. I used
a paper clip.

Do they look rusted?

Not some sort of penetrating oil. Get the PB Blaster. There's nothing like it.
It's far superior to anything else I've used.

You're probably right.

I don't see why you'd have to adjust the idle, since it's running at 750 RPM
when warmed up, but maybe one of the pros here will see something I do not.

 

2 months ago I checked the timing on my 92 Civic. It was 3 degrees off. There was
no way to adjust it to within 2 degrees to pass smog check. The problem was that
the timing belt was off 1 tooth.

My guess is that your timing is off a tooth. Check the timing belt. It's quite
easy.

 

Yep, I'd investigate the timing belt/cam first. Who replaced the timing
belt? The 1.6L & 1.5L engines have different cam pulley alignments for
proper belt installation/timing -- see
http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html -- and it wouldn't
be the first time somebody got it wrong. Hell some goon "mechanic" once
lost the crankshaft pulley key and the pulley was not aligned on the
crankshaft.

Are you sure you're reading the index mark and notches right?... no fancy
advance thingy built into the timing light which needs to be disabled?
Engine at normal idle of 700-800rpm? You're supposed to jumper the service
connector too but it's been said it makes no difference below 900rpm -
which I found to be true. Not sure what you mean by "above the pointer"..
the strobe goes off with the pulley marks to the right of the index mark...
i.e. advanced? With timing that far off I'm surprised the thing runs at
all.

On my Integras it's a 12mm and yes, if they haven't been loosened in a
while, it'll take a whack with the heel of your hand to get them off.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

I just got my landlady to let me use the driveway. So I pull of the
cylinder head cover and upper timing belt cover, and turn the crankshaft
counter clockwise until the "UP" mark on my camshaft pulley is up and
the plastic pointer is aligned with line on the camshaft pulley. I look
down to see where the crankshaft pulley is at, and its centered on the 3
marks for ignition timing, not the single TDC mark!

I guess I didn't recognize that my car was set up incorrectly for 10k
miles, but I sure noticed a serious change a few weeks ago and have been
trying to figure this out since. And to answer Caroline's question, I
have no clue how many miles or years are on my timing belt. The teeth do
not look worn. I did notice a small gash on the smooth part of the belt.

So, I guess I'm in a good position to change my timing belt. Does anyone
know at what degree the pistons interfere with the valves?

Amazed,

Mark

 

I decided to see if I could slip the belt off of the camshaft pulley
with the crankshaft lined up at TDC. It looks doable and I have a socket
wrench combo that can get at the tensioner bolt to redo the tension
according to my Helm manual once the belt is back on.

Does anyone have enough experience based on what I've shared in these
three posts to judge that the crankshaft pulley was put back on properly
with the key in when whoever screwed this all up? With the crankshaft
pulley at TDC, the camshaft pulley now has the up mark facing downward,
about 5:00, and a marked line on the camshaft pulley on the opposite
side of the pulley from the plastic pointer is approximately lined up
with the pointer.

I am very tempted to try to fix this, but think I should probably wait
to see if I can trust that the #1 piston is truly TDC when the
crankshaft pulley mark is ligned up for TDC. Should i stick something
down the spark plug hole?

Mark

 

i'd be very careful. i don't doubt that you've checked, and
double-checked, but i've seen mis-toothed belts a number of times
[junior tech not doing the belt right first time] and it will drive real
rough if that's happened. and there's a massive lack of performance.

regarding the cam wheel, i can't recall exactly, but i think it has
about 40 teeth. [always an even number for the cam.] 360/40 = 9
degrees, so that would be the offset you mention.

i'd leave it overnight and look at it on the cold light of a new day
before checking one last time - it really is very unusual for a belt to
jump just one tooth. particularly if the timing belt tension is halfway
correct.

remove the spark plugs before aligning for tdc - makes sure there's no
compression left in a cylinder "adjusting" your position after you last
checked it. also makes it easier to turn. you can stick something down
the spark plug hole to check tdc, but it's not very reliable because you
have a number of degree of rotation with the piston at the top which are
hard to detect by this method. stick to the white mark on the pulley
wheel as being reliable.

 

I have one timing belt re-installation under my belt.

No doubt like you, I am wondering whether your timing belt slipped. It sounds
like you're wondering if the key is somehow not holding the crankshaft TB pulley
securely, too.

FWIW: I googled and saw a post that said one timing belt tooth off = 19 degrees
of crank timing. The middle mark of the three marks is 18 degrees from TDC.
Seems like this is coincident enough with your finding today to suggest your
belt is off by one tooth.

Barring other suggestions from those who have more timing belt installations
under their belt, I'd do a full timing belt re-installation. This would allow me
to examine the crankshaft TB pulley key, maybe the camshaft TB pulley key, and
the tensioner. If anything looks at all out of sorts, I'd replace the timing
belt, the tensioner, and the tensioner spring.

Given that you don't know how old the timing belt is anyway, replacement might
be a very good idea.

I've read of people checking the piston's position by sticking a rod down the
spark plug hole. If you don't want to do a full timing belt re-installation, I'd
sure do this.

Nice progress, BTW.

 

That's so hot.

 

So I went for it. I stuck the handle of a wooden spoon down the #1 cyl.
Spark plug hole and felt a piston at the top. I guess I trusted the
person before me put in the crank pulley key correctly. It seemed like a
simple mistake where the last person to install the timing belt just
matched it up totally wrong and used the ig. timing marks instead of the
tdc mark. I'm suprised they wouldn't have noticed though. I was able to
swap back and forth between turning the camshaft and crankshaft to line
up the marks and slipped the T-belt back on and adjusted the tensioner.
It's awesome that honda allows you to access the tensioner without a lot
of disassembly. Much thanks to all the input! This post is kind of half
assed, but I'm a busy guy! The car runs like a top and now I understand
why a lot of kids always pull up to me and ask if I want to sell it.


Much grattitude,

Mark

 

You forgot to mention replacing the water pump, Caroline, 8¬).

 

So how does the timing light work now? Was the ignition right with the
belt repositioned? I'm curious how you got the tensioner loosened - I once
tried doing the tension on a '90 Civic we had and the clearance between the
inner fender and the engine was so tight I had no wrench which could get at
it. Did you have a thin head socket driver or maybe a 3/8" drive breaker
bar?

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

George,

The timing looks like it is right on now. I might check it again after
driving the car for a while. I just used an average 3/8" socket wrench
to get at the tensioner bolt under the black plastic cap. Maybe the
soclket set I have has short sockets. There wasn't a lot of room to
ratchet the wrench, but I would take the wrench off and click the socket
on the wrench to get it at the right angle to torque the tensior bolt
back down really well. Maybe the D16A6 sits a little differently in the
engine bay and there is more room in my car than your old '90?

I am going to try to check my valve lash when I get the chance. I did
around 10k ago when I got the car and I figure this couldn't hurt
considering how the valves must have been feeling pressure at times when
they were not supposed to.

Mark

 

I've asked this before without getting a good answer, but you may well
know it. I had my timing belt/water pump changed at the dealer some
time ago (probably a year or two or so by now) and since that time I
have noticed what sounds like just a little pre-ignition pinging to
me...but only in 5th gear in the 45-50 mph range.

I've had a mechanic drive it and he thought it was just some sort of
vibration that I've been unable to find.

Oh, this is a 95 Del Sol VTEC model. If the timing belt had been off
placed by one tooth on intake or exhaust cam or such, would there indeed
be a notable difference in the way the car runs/idles/whatever?

I've not been *too* concerned about it obviously, but I do wonder from
time to time if I ought to open it up and see about this.

--

George

http://people.delphiforums.com/gmcc

 

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:34:18 -0400, George Macdonald

||On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:42:33 -0500, Chopface <>
||wrote:
||
||>So I went for it. I stuck the handle of a wooden spoon down the #1 cyl.
||>Spark plug hole and felt a piston at the top. I guess I trusted the
||>person before me put in the crank pulley key correctly. It seemed like a
||>simple mistake where the last person to install the timing belt just
||>matched it up totally wrong and used the ig. timing marks instead of the
||>tdc mark. I'm suprised they wouldn't have noticed though. I was able to
||>swap back and forth between turning the camshaft and crankshaft to line
||>up the marks and slipped the T-belt back on and adjusted the tensioner.
||>It's awesome that honda allows you to access the tensioner without a lot
||>of disassembly. Much thanks to all the input! This post is kind of half
||>assed, but I'm a busy guy! The car runs like a top and now I understand
||>why a lot of kids always pull up to me and ask if I want to sell it.
||
||So how does the timing light work now? Was the ignition right with the
||belt repositioned? I'm curious how you got the tensioner loosened - I once
||tried doing the tension on a '90 Civic we had and the clearance between the
||inner fender and the engine was so tight I had no wrench which could get at
||it. Did you have a thin head socket driver or maybe a 3/8" drive breaker
||bar?

George
Perhaps the motor mounts on your Civic were worn or broken and the engine had
shifted to the left?
Texas Parts Guy

 

Nope. All the Hondas/Acuras I've had are tight there - the '90 Civic was
near impossible.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

if youre in 5th doing 45mph, youre lugging the engine. 4th or even 3rd
would be more reasonable.

 

=========================

gmccx,

You really should read the chapter in your Owner's manual about "5-speed
manual transmission" Maximum speeds for each gear are noted.

Why your mechanic didn't question your use of FIFTH gear at 45 MPH is
beyond me. That's probably one of the best ways to destroy a Honda,
other than failing to check your oil level.

The car came with a Fine manual. Please read the fine manual. Stay safe.

'Curly'