Doing my own brakes (97 Accord) - need some advice

I am a handy guy (engineering background) and I do quite a bit of my
own work on my car (oil changes, electrical repairs, etc). I am
considering doing my own brake work. With the miles I put on my car
each year, I am servicing both front and rear brakes annually at a
cost of close to $800. I know that servicing brakes on my own are
risky, as my safety can be compromised. I am looking to hear from
other "amateurs" who decided to do their own brakes and the problems
they have encountered. Any tips and recommendations to quickly get up
to speed would be helpfull. I have my service manual to my 97 Accord.
Are their classes that any of you took to learn this from a
professional? I know that rotors often need to be resurfaced
professionally. Where do you guys go for that and how much does it
usually cost? Are their videos that anyone would recommend?Since this
is my only car, I am wondering if that means I need to keep spare
rotors to swap out.

 

One thing I learned (writing as an amateur also with an
engineering background, though a fairly "hands on" one) is
that it's hard to mess up brakes so badly that the risk is
any greater than a random non-brake part failing and causing
injury.

Automotive brake systems are "mechanically tough" and have
multiple redundancies in their design.

Some 12 years after I started doing my own front brake pad
replacements and rear brake inspections, I took one
community college (vocational side) course on brakes. Mostly
what it did is give me more practice at quickly getting
apart and putting back together my 91 Civic's rear drum
brakes and similar drum brakes.

I replaced the front pads on my 91 Civic this past summer
(after a somewhat exhausting do-it-yourself timing belt
tensioner etc. replacement that went a bit amiss) and was
amazed at how quickly I did them this time vs. the first
time some 15 years ago. It took around fifteen minutes
total, with five of those minutes going to put the front of
my car on jackstands. Knowing exactly what tools will speed
up the job helps immensely, of course.

Some (all?) 97 Accord's have rear drum brakes. The shoes on
rear drum brakes wear much more slowly than the front
brake's pads. This is good, because the pads are much easier
to change.

I never had the rotors on my 91 Civic turned. The thickness
is okay (a bit uneven), and they are a bit scored, but the
brakes seem to work fine. Plus the car is likely only good
for the proverbial (amongst those of us who drive cars into
the ground!) "five more years." But YMMV, as far as wanting
nicer rotors is concerned.

 

I am servicing both front and rear brakes annually at a

That is AWFULLY expensive, I think

Years ago, I worked evenings and weekends as a mechanic to make extra money.
I took classes and worked with professionals who could give me the benefit
of
their experience.

As far as safety wise, be very careful how you get your car up on supports,
and
how you take it down. (You already know the supports MUST be robust)

Sometimes rotors need to be resurfaced or replaced. BUT NOT ALWAYS
If they must be resufaced, I take them to a local machine shop. I have dial
indicators and micrometers which help me determine if the rotors are true
and of sufficient thickness. I have a torque wrench to put the wheels back
on properly.

If you are having to re-do brakes annually, something seem suspicious.
Pads usually last a lot longer than that. Rotors do too.

What is your problem, or what are you trying to accomplish?

 

I'm gonna jump in here and offer general comments - I haven't done my Honda
brakes yet but am close to doing so - I have done brakes on several other
vehicles that I have owned and would recommend that you consider going ahead
and do your own on the Honda - others may have more Honda-specific tips to
suggest.

from the diagrams I have seen, Honda rotors look to be quite simple to
exchange - some vehicles have the rotors as part of the hub assembly and
this would complicate the issue so that you would have to deal with bearings
and greasing them and torquing them, etc - apparently Honda has taken the
higher road and has the rotors as a removeable disk attached to the hub so
we don't have to get into that.

what has to be done is to remove the caliper (pads first) - take out a
couple of screws holding the rotor in place - replace with a new rotor (or
resurface your old one and replace) and reinstall the caliper and pads
(probably new ones) - and you're done
one thing to watch is master cylinder fluid level - you may have to compress
the caliper piston (I use a C-clamp) to make room for new pads which have
more thickness and this might overflow the master cylinder fluid level
another thing to ware of is that you take care to hang the removed caliper
so that it doesn't cause stress on the caliper hoses.

to determine whether to resurface or replace you first may determine the
remaining thickness of your rotors by miking them and comparing to min specs
taking into consideration the condition of your rotors (i.e. if they are
deeply scored and grinding them down to remove the scoring will make them
too thin..)

nowadays, it seems that resurfacing has taking a back seat to replacing
(maybe it's more cost effective {if so, another sad state of affairs} and
others will give advice about that) - but that seems to be the
recommendations that garages I've dealt with offer - maybe it's simpler for
them...

spare rotors: I wouldn't think that's necessary - the only risk might be in
getting things apart and discovering you need a part or something and have
no way of getting to a parts place to get it because your car is on
jacks.... think ahead here > don't get too heavily into the project that
you can't back out and drive to the parts store. If you have no other way
to get to a place to have rotors resurfaced, and you find they are below
spec by preliminary inspection, have new rotors on hand. You can always put
the new pads in and drive for a bit without destroying them immediately if
your pads are shot. Also make sure you have the necessary wrenches on hand -
I don't know yet about the Honda ones, but I got caught on my Taurus ones
not have the correct size Torx bit.

I'm sure someone here will post a link to a full-scale how-to for you. But
these are my initial caveats for you to consider.
As for your previous experience qualifications, I would say that you should
have no problems since you can use tools and can read (the engineering part
is only relevant regarding the literacy component - my son is an aerospace
engineer ;-)

Dave.

 

It's an easy job, and it's not hard to do right. If you are nervous
about it, get a friend to show you. But really, just replacing pads
is easy to learn from the Haynes manual.

No, I watched my dad do it on our MGB when I was a kid, and that was
all the training it took.

How much do spare rotors cost? If they are cheap, just get an extra
set. Follow the directions in the manual and measure the rotors with
a micrometer (I actually cheat and use a vernier caliper) to make sure
they aren't too thin and aren't warped.

On most cars you won't need to resurface them unless they either get
warped or they get wrecked by not replacing the pads soon enough. If
you have access to a bench lathe at work, you can use it to resurface
the things. But if they are cheap, just replace them if you see any
signs of problem.

Ask someone at work who works on their own car to show you. It's an
easy job to do.
--scott

 

I made up this series of pages:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/rustybrakes/brakes1.html
It specifically concerns an Integra/Civic, but may help as a general
overview for your Accord.

Don't know if your Accord has rear drums or rear discs, and if discs,
whether you've got drum-in-hat or PB on caliper. If you've got drums, the
rears can be left alone for many years.

 

Wow! How so? Once you get in there and see how easy it is, you'll wonder
why you didn't so it sooner.

Also, look at it this way: if someone with no more than a High School
education can do it, why can't you?

(HOLD IT!!!! That was meant as a JOKE, son. Those guys are well trained
(usually) by their employers, and have to deal with EVERY SINGLE brake
system on the road. When I get stumped, guess what I do...)

At any rate, the only thing I don't like about Hondas is that some of the
rotors are pressed onto the bearing, and it makes it a REAL PITA. I think
Honda got awa from this by '97.

I used to think the same way until I did my first brake job. And all wheel
dics are a snap. If it has rear drums, pay attention, make notes, or use
your digital camera. One time I put the adjuster on wrong on one side, but
corrected it before I drove the car...

 

You need a press to service this system.

 

Rotors at palces like CarQuest and AutoZone are anywhere from $8 to $50.
Resurfacing costs $25-40 per rotor. I usually just buy the new rotors when
doing the pads, then I don't have to fart around with it for 30,000 miles
or more...

The way I drive my cars, that's ~3 years between jobs...

 

but it's a great way of reducing the probability of insufficiently
trained brake jockeys causing brake judder...

 

I would humbly suggest that someone who cannot see the potential safety
issues in working on brakes - even the simplest operations such as changing
pads - is hardly qualified to give advice on servicing brakes.

Yet, YOU feel qualified to encourage an untrained individual to tackle his
own brakes.

That's the only mistake that you KNOW about. I'll bet you made a few more
you DON'T know about.

 

Ok, here's one I can answer, having just done this on my '98 Accord.

First, it is easier than any car I've owned. My dealer wanted $112 per
end, plus parts. The pads(mine has disks on both ends), cost $118 and since
I already had a caliper expander, that was all I spent. (Total dealer would
have been $336)

The front: My accord has wheels that you can reach through to check the
wear on the disk. Mine had minimal wear, probably a couple thousandths, you
could just barely hook a fingernail on the lip.
After removing the wheel, pull the lower caliper bolt, and the assembly
rotates up and out of the way. The old pads pop out rather easily. Drain
about half of the brake fluid from the reservoir, so when you expand the
caliper it doesn't overflow. (I used a turkey baster). Expand the caliper
using c clamps or a tool, insert the new pads,(with shims and the included
anti-seize compound) rotate into position and replace the lower bolt.
Repeat for the other wheel. Having done this, I think I could do it in an
hour, with hand tools, including the jacking the car using the little
scissors jack. Why Honda thinks it is worth 2 hours each end is beyond me.
If you need to get the rotors resurfaced, a shop in town will do it for
around $10 per rotor. The rotors are held on with 4 bolts(I think), and have
some predrilled and tapped holes that you can use to pull stuck rotors off.
(you put bolts in the holes, and screw them in, forcing the rotor out). All
in all, a very clean design, and easy to work on.

The rear brakes are only slightly different, because of the emergency
brake. I had to pull both caliper bolts, and the calipers are expanded by
rotating them as opposed to just pushing on them. There is a little box type
tool that does this, or you can use a very large screwdriver. Because this
adjustment is in the caliper, you won't have fluid overflow issues like you
do on the front.

All in all, mine took a couple of hours, cost me only the official Honda
pads, and I would recommend this job to any backyard mechanic. If you have
problems, bring them here for a wealth of good advice.

Al G

 

What are you, a wise-ass?

I've done the brakes on all my cars since 1999, including a 240SX,
Tercels, Celicas, Supras, AWD Caravans, etc etc. Once you've done it once,
it's elementary. I've rebuilt calipers, resurfaced rotors, done discs and
drums.

How about adding something that helps the OP instead of being a Richard?

Sure. Why not? The guy's an engineer. I was just a lowly technician and
was able to figure it out in under an hour.

I'll bet this is you:

http://www.pacificsites.com/~lakenews/LCFP%20Graphics/head_up_ass.gif

Ya know, after the first 12,000 miles, I stop wondering.

Stop following me around like a little puppy looking for attention, huh?

If you haven't anything to add, STFU. Remember, better to remain silent
and be thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt...

 

Guys like you are dangerous!

You THINK you know everything, but you REALLY don't.

For example, you saw no potential safety issues with an inexperienced
person working on brakes. I, on the other hand, have seen plenty of
dangerous, inexperienced DIY errors in jobs as "simple" as replacing brake
pads.

You, obviously, have never worked in a real service garage and had your
Monday morning filled with fixing the Saturday/Sunday DIY
screwups........then listened to the crying when correcting the screwup in
addition to effecting the original repair came to two-or-three times what
the original repair would have cost alone.

I'm merely pointing out the areas in which someone might want to reconsider
your opinions on things......That's all.

I'm not going after you in particular, but you seem to make more assinine
statements concerning automotive service than most of the other posters.

Don't flatter yourself into thinking you are some sort of celebrity worthy
of a stalker.

 

I believe that, in pointing out your erroneous statements, and cavalier
attitude towards effecting SAFE repairs, I AM actually contributing
something to the OP....................

You, OTOH, may exercise your right to disagree.

 

Thanks! Brakes are No Great Mystery. If the OP gets even a Haynes manual,
it should take far less than an afternoon to figure out. There's a set of
pads or shoes, and a friction surface. Big deal.

I showed my daughter how to do brakes when she was 14.

 

Damn, son, you're looking in the mirror again.

Funny how you went Dead Silent when I said I wanted to know about the
effects on steering and suspension geometry in the post about tires.
Instead you come back with some BS about tire pressures and contact
patches. The fact of the matter is, the car maker's spec was 32 PSI for
the tires, and the tiremaker's max was 35 PSI. 3 PSI isn't going to make
or break anything. The difference is negligible.

But you kept on rambling and rambling until I asked about geometry. Then
is got quiet awful fast...

WTF is there to a modern braking system?! Even ABS is no big mystery!
What garage do you work at? What kind of boat do you have?

Take the wheel off. Look at the brakes. If you can figure it out, go
ahead. If not, put the wheel back on, and drive to any competent shop
(Sorry, *, thatr leaves you out...)

I worked at a Toyota dealer...doing brakes...after having taught myself...

NO! HE *HAS* TO DO HIS OWN BRAKES!!!! I SAID SO, THAT'S WHY!!!!


HEY, OP!!! IF YOU DON'T DO YOUR OWN BRAKES, I'LL HUNT YOU DOWN AND YELL
NEENER, NEENER, NEENER UNTIL YOUR EARS FALL OFF!!!!

Just thought I'd join in and give you a hand.

Great! Then go away, you irritating little man!

 

And it works! My '88 Accord always went to the shop!


Our friend, "*" (um, who knows EVERYTHING about ALL cars) may not want to
admit it, but *I* know when I'm over my head and it's time to consult a
Pro...

And I usually do before I take on almost any job. I used to work at a
CarQuest and know EVERY mechanic and tech in town, and know who to ask
about what situation. If they say, "It's easy!" I listen to their
direections/instructions and decide wheter to tackle the job myself or not.

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. But I alays get a better understanding
(and a lot of respect for the guys who do the jobs I won't...)

 

If you know when you are over your head, why, then, do you get all
flustered when I point it out?

 

The geometry question came up about halfway through the thread.....


============================================

==========================================

Tires DO NOT affect steering or suspension geometry. They are affected BY
steering and suspension geometry.

You must change/modify steering and suspension components in order to
change steering and suspension geometry.

Now, will you be so kind as to answer a few of the technical tire questions
I have posed since the beginning of the "tire" thread?

Okay! Give us a brief description of ABS and its components..........

ASE, the people who have given me a number of certificates to hang on my
wall, several automotive manufacturers - brake and others - who have ALSO
provided certificates for training and updating session attendance going
back to the late '60s, and the State Board of Education and Cultural
Services that granted me a Vocational Automotive Technology teaching
certificate would disagree with you.............

Oh yeah.....and my "regular" customers in the motorsports arena for whom I
do suspension setups and dyno-test shocks and tires weekly.



What lubricant do you use on caliper pins?....on brake shoe pads?.....or do
you even bother?

Where does the shim go on disc brakes?

On drum brakes, you're diassembling a cheap set of relines, and replacing
them with a set of brand-new shoes. Which shoe goes towards the front?

Which cars require the use of a special tool to reset the caliper
piston(s), and can be damaged if the tool is not used - or not used
correctly? Remember, you're giving out general information here - not just
for people who own the same make/model car as you do.

What is the difference between a fixed and a floating caliper?

What's the prupose of a metering valve - NOT proportioning valve - on a
disc brake setup? How does one diagnose it? (HINT: If you know what it
actually IS, you are halfway to diagnosing it.)

Which confirms my initial statement......you've been "protected" from the
real world by a Service Manager who stuck his nose in the air when a DIY
came in with a screwup, sending him down the road......You've NEVER had to
undo dangerous, screwed-up repairs.

I've always helped out the hapless DIY-ers who erroneously followed advice
dished out by people like you - advice that was worth every single cent
they paid for it.

That's part of the reason for the soapbox, Bunky! I've seen a lot of it!

I've since decided to give other shops the opportunity to help out people
who REALLY don't appreciate the help, and continue to paint themselves into
corners by taking sketchy advice from unqualified strangers on the 'net.

I send them down the street to the Shade Tree Garage guy who works for
$10/hour "CASH-under-the-table" evenings and weekends, and thinks he's
making BIG money.