EGR valve...

Actually carburetors are very sensitive devices which must be tuned properly
or performance and economy will go to hell. Typically the best results in
fuel economy can be had with an Autolite 2100 or Autolite 4100 carburetor.
Yes, Fords own design. If kept on the same engine they came on they will
have the mixture set properly by way of properly sized jets. The only
adjustments an owner/mechanic will ever need to make is when doing a tune-up
to adjust the idle mixture screws for highest vacuum and the idle stop screw
to put the idle speed where it belongs.

Also, vacuum advance units were matched for particular engines and
distributors, as was the mechanical advance curve of the distributor. You
can mix and match distributors from different applications all you want, but
if you want it running optimally you'll need to re-tune the advance curve
for the new application. If everything is left stock there is not much
tuning one car do to optimize an engine. One of the few things you can do
with those engines and keep it stock is advance the timing, as it is
retarded from the most the engine will take to put a margin of error in for
different conditions and variances in fuel quality, as well as emissions
reasons. Typically you can get a little more advance out of it to increase
performance and mileage. The side-effect I believe of the more complete
combustion and cooler running temperature is more NOX, either that or CO...
Something anyway.

But wasn't due to emissions reasons and/or to prevent pre-detonation under
vastly varying loads the cars could be put under anywhere in the U.S. You
can't ahve it all, everything is a compromise.

Sorry buddy but you can't adjust the springs. You can change them to lighter
or heavier springs, and you can limit the mechanical advance to either 10*
or 15* (distributor degrees, that is) depending on which stop you use. The
ability to do any of that was never removed until electronic controls. Even
then, the old TFI setups had 'octane rods' in the distributor to adjust the
advance curve.

There were always the same adjustments able to be made on carburetors. Fords
(Autolite) carburetors were pretty much the most simple and failure proof
design you can get. You can adjust the throttle stop, idle mixture, high
idle speed, choke spring position, choke plate position, and change jets.
That's how it is on both of my Autolite 2100s from the '60s and that's how
it is on my friend's '86 Motorcraft 2300. The Motorcraft is almost identical
to my old Autolite carbs and has all the same adjustments.

Gas mileage was not irrelevant. Why do you think you could get a "mileage
maker" inline 6 in any of Fords passenger cars? Yes, it was called the
"mileage maker", the 200 cube I6. It was a good reliable and efficient
engine. In a compact car such as a Falcon 25+ MPG was not unheard of on the
highway. Not bad considering the cars were as aerodynamic as a brick and
overdrive was a _very_ rare option.

Anyway, why don't you let me know a little more about "those hoses" on that
'69 Nova and what 'emissions controls' the connected to?

Cory

 

I used to open 1960s carburetors constantly. The float was
never anywhere near to spec. But then I began learning it did
not have to be. We simply dumped so much 1960 gasoline down
the tube and everything worked fine. Bean counters learned
that carburetor adjustments could be ignored. Some cars did
not run as well, but they all ran good enough to sell (ie your
302 that only got 12 MPG). Carburetors were very crude
devices.

Once we cut through all the hype of that time, a carburetor
was a complex and crudely adjusted device. But car could be
sold and kept working even when carburetor adjustments were
not performed in the factory.

Springs on distributors are adjustable. The shop manuals
described how to bend tabs to make those adjustments with
timing curve charts to bend those tabs to.

You keep referring to a vehicle - the 69 Nova - that I don't
believe ever had those extra hoses (and what they connect to)
to increase fuel economy. Those high mileage engines were so
rare that I only found them in shop manuals. And what did
those early 1960 engines have? All the same hoses that later
appear in 1970 engines - as pollution control crap. IOW when
they told us price of cars had to increase do to pollution
control equipment, really they were lying. They did almost
nothing for pollution control in the early 70s. A story about
Chrysler's CAP system (where EGR valve was developed) made
that obvious why.

Back to the Honda. Carburetor manufacturers did not even
bother to adjust the float because carburetors could be
crudely adjusted (or not at all) and the car still worked. If
float was too badly out of adjustment, then any resulting
problems were solved by the idler adjustment mixing screw. In
the 60s, no one was concerned with mileage and price of gas
(even though gasoline is cheaper today than it was in the
60s).

No reason to worry about making distributor timing curves
consistent or in adjusting the carburetor in production.
Motorheads would brag about how they improved the engine when
all they had to do is perform adjustment not done in the
factory.

But EPA requirements changed all that. Low pollution is
achieved by increasing fuel mileage, horsepower, and
performance. Since many carberated engines were so poorly
adjusted, then those same engines would dump so much gas down
tailpipe as to overheat catalytic converters. Some converter
actually set leaves afire - because carburetor was so badly
adjusted. Honda, on the other hand, even had adjustment
screws outside the carburetor to adjust both primary and pre
combustion carburetor floats - and a simple procedure to make
those adjustments. The interplay between primary and pre
combustion carburetors was so finely adjusted that if you
moved linkage adjustment screws, then the fine interplay could
not be reestablished in the field.

BTW, Hondas were so superior in design that they did not
even use a PCV valve. They had a better system for crankcase
ventilation that eliminated periodic PCV replacement.

Like in the Vega story, if adjustments such as carburetor
were properly made, then no air pump was required - because a
higher mileage and high performance engine could pollute
less. It is what Honda brought to 1970s America - engines
properly adjusted in the factory so that carburetors need not
be adjusted.

Outside of the Honda carburetor, then only other one I saw
that with equivalent in 'beauty of design' was Weber 5210 that
was used both by DeLorean and by small Fords. Since 1960s
cars solved problems by dumping more gas down the intake
manifold, then 1960 carburetors were crude contraptions that
would work good enough without factory adjustments.

What MBAs did to cut costs. Eliminated many factory
adjustments such as float level. Stop performing those spring
adjustments on distributors. It would explain why your 302
could so improve gas mileage (and why a 390 cu inch got better
gas mileage) by adjusting the distributor advance - because
they stopped making factory adjustments to cut costs. It
would also explain why the Ford Pinto and Capri - both with
same engine and carburetor - performed radically different.
The Capri was built in Germany where MBAs were not designing
cars and manipulating the assembly lines. German built Capri
simply had everything adjusted to factory specs - and did not
have Henry Ford's MBA concept of fixing the cam shaft (another
story about why cars really failed).

 

I used to open 1960s carburetors constantly. The float was
never anywhere near to spec. But then I began learning it did
not have to be. We simply dumped so much 1960 gasoline down
the tube and everything worked fine. Bean counters learned
that carburetor adjustments could be ignored. Some cars did
not run as well, but they all ran good enough to sell (ie your
302 that only got 12 MPG). Carburetors were very crude
devices.

Once we cut through all the hype of that time, a carburetor
was a complex and crudely adjusted device. But car could be
sold and kept working even when carburetor adjustments were
not performed in the factory.

Springs on distributors are adjustable. The shop manuals
described how to bend tabs to make those adjustments with
timing curve charts to bend those tabs to.

You keep referring to a vehicle - the 69 Nova - that I don't
believe ever had those extra hoses (and what they connect to)
to increase fuel economy. Those high mileage engines were so
rare that I only found them in shop manuals. And what did
those early 1960 engines have? All the same hoses that later
appear in 1970 engines - as pollution control crap. IOW when
they told us price of cars had to increase do to pollution
control equipment, really they were lying. They did almost
nothing for pollution control in the early 70s. A story about
Chrysler's CAP system (where EGR valve was developed) made
that obvious why.

Back to the Honda. Carburetor manufacturers did not even
bother to adjust the float because carburetors could be
crudely adjusted (or not at all) and the car still worked. If
float was too badly out of adjustment, then any resulting
problems were solved by the idler adjustment mixing screw. In
the 60s, no one was concerned with mileage and price of gas
(even though gasoline is cheaper today than it was in the
60s).

No reason to worry about making distributor timing curves
consistent or in adjusting the carburetor in production.
Motorheads would brag about how they improved the engine when
all they had to do is perform adjustment not done in the
factory.

But EPA requirements changed all that. Low pollution is
achieved by increasing fuel mileage, horsepower, and
performance. Since many carberated engines were so poorly
adjusted, then those same engines would dump so much gas down
tailpipe as to overheat catalytic converters. Some converter
actually set leaves afire - because carburetor was so badly
adjusted. Honda, on the other hand, even had adjustment
screws outside the carburetor to adjust both primary and pre
combustion carburetor floats - and a simple procedure to make
those adjustments. The interplay between primary and pre
combustion carburetors was so finely adjusted that if you
moved linkage adjustment screws, then the fine interplay could
not be reestablished in the field.

BTW, Hondas were so superior in design that they did not
even use a PCV valve. They had a better system for crankcase
ventilation that eliminated periodic PCV replacement.

Like in the Vega story, if adjustments such as carburetor
were properly made, then no air pump was required - because a
higher mileage and high performance engine could pollute
less. It is what Honda brought to 1970s America - engines
properly adjusted in the factory so that carburetors need not
be adjusted.

Outside of the Honda carburetor, then only other one I saw
that with equivalent in 'beauty of design' was Weber 5210 that
was used both by DeLorean and by small Fords. Since 1960s
cars solved problems by dumping more gas down the intake
manifold, then 1960 carburetors were crude contraptions that
would work good enough without factory adjustments.

What MBAs did to cut costs. Eliminated many factory
adjustments such as float level. Stop performing those spring
adjustments on distributors. It would explain why your 302
could so improve gas mileage (and why a 390 cu inch got better
gas mileage) by adjusting the distributor advance - because
they stopped making factory adjustments to cut costs. It
would also explain why the Ford Pinto and Capri - both with
same engine and carburetor - performed radically different.
The Capri was built in Germany where MBAs were not designing
cars and manipulating the assembly lines. German built Capri
simply had everything adjusted to factory specs - and did not
have Henry Ford's MBA concept of fixing the cam shaft (another
story about why cars really failed).

 

w_tom in your following post you stated : "In the 60s, no one was concerned
with mileage and price of gas (even though gasoline is cheaper today than it
was in the 60s)."

I have often wondered how that does compare --what factoring are you using
to come up with this. Seems to me gas would have had to been less than 25
cents to hold true. For the life of me I can't remember what it did cost say
in 1962.

Can you help?

The Artful Codger

 

w_tom in your following post you stated : "In the 60s, no one was concerned
with mileage and price of gas (even though gasoline is cheaper today than it
was in the 60s)."

I have often wondered how that does compare --what factoring are you using
to come up with this. Seems to me gas would have had to been less than 25
cents to hold true. For the life of me I can't remember what it did cost say
in 1962.

Can you help?

The Artful Codger

 

29.9/gallon for regular late 50's-early 60's. Amoco premium was
routinely 39.9/gallon late 60's-early 70's when it was the only unleaded
around. This is in the CT & NJ area.

 

29.9/gallon for regular late 50's-early 60's. Amoco premium was
routinely 39.9/gallon late 60's-early 70's when it was the only unleaded
around. This is in the CT & NJ area.

 

From a CPI table from the government:
$0.299 per gallon in 1957 is $1.98 today.
$0.299 in 1962 is $1.84 today.
$0.399 in 1968 is $2.13 toady.
But I remember gas at $0.329 in 1972; which is $1.46 today.
Compare facts to popularly held opinions. Today people
complain price of gas is too high.

IOW they live on their emotions; and not upon facts. Same
is true about anti-pollution equipment in cars in the early
1970s. Those spin doctors told us that they were putting
numerous anti-pollution devices in cars. Mostly bull. But
even mechanics would believe it because no one first bothered
to discover what was being intalled. Anti-pollution equipment
was a carbon canister system to capture gas tank fumes
(developed by Esso as it was called back then) and retard the
cam in relation to the crank (which was retarded as much as 9
and 10 degrees). Although EGR valve also participated in
lowering Nitrous oxides, EGR really was more a combustion
moderator. Instead of slapping the piston (loss of energy),
the gasoline ignited slower. This made a smoother push on the
piston, causes a more complete burning of gasoline, and
lowered combustion temperatures thereby creating less NOxs.
To create NOx, energy had to be taken from the engine. NOx
out the exhaust pipe is energy thrown away; and called
pollution. IOW break up Nitrogen oxides to get nitrogen,
oxygen ... and more energy. No pollution. Engine that
outputs more energy.

And yet because so many only use emotion to decide, then
most people believed lies from auto executives - people who
did not even have driver's licenses - who could not even
drive. Most early 70s people believed the lie that increased
pollution control meant lower gas mileage. Car mileage went
from 15 and 18 MPG down to 8 and 11 MPG because automakers
chose the simplest and least efficient method - retard cam.

Still that was acceptable! Price of energy was irrelevant.
That was until the price of gas skyrocketed. In today's
money, gasoline went from $1.50 per gallon to $2.71. Then it
jumped to about $3.50 per gallon. Did that get your
attention? It did in the mid 1970s.

Back in the 60s, no one cared about gas mileage. We built
new homes with NO insulation even in the 70s. All this when
energy was more expensive. Go figure! Today, we still care
more about gas mileage and even insulate houses. Why? Energy
is cheaper.

An engineer learns long ago - people are manipulated by
their emotions - not by facts. It is, after all, why a
president can lie repeatedly, when facts make it obvious what
he is saying is seriously suspect. And yet we would still
invade a sovereign nation on what we now know were a long list
of lies. Spin doctors know how to play us because and for
example, many people have no idea that gasoline was at the
lowest prices in mankind history during the 90s. Gasoline had
never been cheaper - once emotion is replaced by facts.

For that matter, organizations such as EPA, Honda, and
Toyota caused increasing mileage and horsepower by reducing
pollution. Such concepts were hearsay in organizations run by
'bean counters' such as GM where innovation, innovators, and
new products are expenses - a necessary evil.

And so we have a real reason for the movie 'Roger and Me'.
He lies. Too many of us believe. Economy suffers.
Fortunately enough of us were fed up with reality and voted
against people like Henry Ford of Ford, Roger Smith of GM, and
Townsend and Richardo of Chrysler. We bought Hondas and other
products designed by 'car guys'. Learning facts rather than
kowtowing to the emotional conclusions of liars is what the
real patriot does. He learns facts and believes in free
markets. Facts say energy is cheap. Probably too cheap.
Cheaper than before 1970s gas crisis. Facts also say that
patriotic companies don't hype emotion. They promote
innovation - such as hybrid technology. Patriots buy from
innovators - not from those who 'spin doctor' reality while
stifling innovation.

In the 1960s, the engineer who developed an EGR valve and
other innovative ideas for less pollution was banned from the
Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) because he was doing
what top auto executives feared. He innovated many of the
concepts that would have remained stifled had it not been for
intelligence in the EPA. But again, another story that runs
contrary to widespread public 'emotion'.

Normal price for gas would be more like $1.80 or $1.90 per
gallon - based upon facts of history.

 

From a CPI table from the government:
$0.299 per gallon in 1957 is $1.98 today.
$0.299 in 1962 is $1.84 today.
$0.399 in 1968 is $2.13 toady.
But I remember gas at $0.329 in 1972; which is $1.46 today.
Compare facts to popularly held opinions. Today people
complain price of gas is too high.

IOW they live on their emotions; and not upon facts. Same
is true about anti-pollution equipment in cars in the early
1970s. Those spin doctors told us that they were putting
numerous anti-pollution devices in cars. Mostly bull. But
even mechanics would believe it because no one first bothered
to discover what was being intalled. Anti-pollution equipment
was a carbon canister system to capture gas tank fumes
(developed by Esso as it was called back then) and retard the
cam in relation to the crank (which was retarded as much as 9
and 10 degrees). Although EGR valve also participated in
lowering Nitrous oxides, EGR really was more a combustion
moderator. Instead of slapping the piston (loss of energy),
the gasoline ignited slower. This made a smoother push on the
piston, causes a more complete burning of gasoline, and
lowered combustion temperatures thereby creating less NOxs.
To create NOx, energy had to be taken from the engine. NOx
out the exhaust pipe is energy thrown away; and called
pollution. IOW break up Nitrogen oxides to get nitrogen,
oxygen ... and more energy. No pollution. Engine that
outputs more energy.

And yet because so many only use emotion to decide, then
most people believed lies from auto executives - people who
did not even have driver's licenses - who could not even
drive. Most early 70s people believed the lie that increased
pollution control meant lower gas mileage. Car mileage went
from 15 and 18 MPG down to 8 and 11 MPG because automakers
chose the simplest and least efficient method - retard cam.

Still that was acceptable! Price of energy was irrelevant.
That was until the price of gas skyrocketed. In today's
money, gasoline went from $1.50 per gallon to $2.71. Then it
jumped to about $3.50 per gallon. Did that get your
attention? It did in the mid 1970s.

Back in the 60s, no one cared about gas mileage. We built
new homes with NO insulation even in the 70s. All this when
energy was more expensive. Go figure! Today, we still care
more about gas mileage and even insulate houses. Why? Energy
is cheaper.

An engineer learns long ago - people are manipulated by
their emotions - not by facts. It is, after all, why a
president can lie repeatedly, when facts make it obvious what
he is saying is seriously suspect. And yet we would still
invade a sovereign nation on what we now know were a long list
of lies. Spin doctors know how to play us because and for
example, many people have no idea that gasoline was at the
lowest prices in mankind history during the 90s. Gasoline had
never been cheaper - once emotion is replaced by facts.

For that matter, organizations such as EPA, Honda, and
Toyota caused increasing mileage and horsepower by reducing
pollution. Such concepts were hearsay in organizations run by
'bean counters' such as GM where innovation, innovators, and
new products are expenses - a necessary evil.

And so we have a real reason for the movie 'Roger and Me'.
He lies. Too many of us believe. Economy suffers.
Fortunately enough of us were fed up with reality and voted
against people like Henry Ford of Ford, Roger Smith of GM, and
Townsend and Richardo of Chrysler. We bought Hondas and other
products designed by 'car guys'. Learning facts rather than
kowtowing to the emotional conclusions of liars is what the
real patriot does. He learns facts and believes in free
markets. Facts say energy is cheap. Probably too cheap.
Cheaper than before 1970s gas crisis. Facts also say that
patriotic companies don't hype emotion. They promote
innovation - such as hybrid technology. Patriots buy from
innovators - not from those who 'spin doctor' reality while
stifling innovation.

In the 1960s, the engineer who developed an EGR valve and
other innovative ideas for less pollution was banned from the
Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) because he was doing
what top auto executives feared. He innovated many of the
concepts that would have remained stifled had it not been for
intelligence in the EPA. But again, another story that runs
contrary to widespread public 'emotion'.

Normal price for gas would be more like $1.80 or $1.90 per
gallon - based upon facts of history.

 

I was paying .25 a gallon in Dayton Ohio in 1968. Northern Illinois was .34
at the brand name stations that year.

 

I was paying .25 a gallon in Dayton Ohio in 1968. Northern Illinois was .34
at the brand name stations that year.

 

I paid 19 cents a gallon in 1962 in Loaisiana.

 

I paid 19 cents a gallon in 1962 in Loaisiana.

 

Seems to me the price scale up here in New England when I was a small
child (late 50s/early 60s) ran like this:
24.9/gal for regular (leaded)
28.9/gal for premium (leaded)
32.9/gal for Amoco premium (unleaded["White gas"])
$2.05/carton for cigarets (regular)

 

Seems to me the price scale up here in New England when I was a small
child (late 50s/early 60s) ran like this:
24.9/gal for regular (leaded)
28.9/gal for premium (leaded)
32.9/gal for Amoco premium (unleaded["White gas"])
$2.05/carton for cigarets (regular)

 

According to the American Petroleum Institute, Washington, D.C.,
average price of a gallon of gasoline in 1962 was 31 cents.

 

According to the American Petroleum Institute, Washington, D.C.,
average price of a gallon of gasoline in 1962 was 31 cents.

 

$0.31 in 1962 is called $1.90 in 2003. IOW price of
gasoline has been much cheaper today than back then when
gasoline was said to be so cheap. And yet back then, people
thought so little of energy prices as to not even insulate
houses AND installed hot air ducts on uninsulated exterior
walls. Today, people foolishly think $1.80 per gallon is
expensive. Using emotion rather than logic to make
conclusions.

 

$0.31 in 1962 is called $1.90 in 2003. IOW price of
gasoline has been much cheaper today than back then when
gasoline was said to be so cheap. And yet back then, people
thought so little of energy prices as to not even insulate
houses AND installed hot air ducts on uninsulated exterior
walls. Today, people foolishly think $1.80 per gallon is
expensive. Using emotion rather than logic to make
conclusions.