Ethanol in gas?

[snip]

Engines run with some extra air around the edges of the combustion to
take care carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and soot. That extra air is
what produces NOx. The solution to that is to cool the combustion by
diluting the air/fuel mixture with exhaust. There goes the efficiency.

Unfortunately, there's no more efficient solution at this time. The
additional CO2 from reduced efficiency is somewhat less toxic than the
hydrocarbons or NOx from an efficient engine.

We're still lacking two critical technologies - cheap fuel cells and
cheap hydrogen storage. Some scientists claim that near-future
nanotechnologies can make cheap fuel cell catalysts and trap hydrogen in
a safe form. I hope so. My Honda Accord Hybrid sure is a failure.

 

Regarding the more tangible ideas presented I suggest that we all run an
experiment with our cars comparing Ethanol Gas with Non Ethanol Gas. As I
have indicated in my Apr 24, 2006 at 02:48 PM post under the title “MPG
difference with different gas?“ I, personally, have seen strong
indication of large fluctuations in gas mileage between two different
brands/gas stations that I have been monitoring lately here in Milpitas,
CA. The difference is not small. So far I have filled up a total of 6
tanks of gas (3 from each station) using my 3 different cars and noticed a
15-17%!! difference in the ethanol gas compared to the non-ethanol gas. The
magnitude of the difference surprised me.

I engaged in this experiment because I had been routinely fueling up at my
local 76 gas station for the past year or so, checking gas mileage once in
a while out of curiosity and as an indication of general engine health.
Then, in the last few months, I noticed that gas mileage on my ’98 Nissan
Frontier had dropped significantly and I started wondering if my engine
was getting out of tune. So I tried filling up at another gas station, my
local Shell station and voila! The MPG went back up to the 24.5MPG that I
remember when the truck was new. I repeated the experiment with my other
two cars, an ’88 Nissan 323 and a ’89 Honda CRX and I also noticed similar
MPG differences (15-17%).

I cannot claim to know at this point whether this is due to the ethanol or
other additives. I do know that the caloric content of ethanol is much
lower than gas so some decrease in gas mileage should be expected. Also I
do not know whether the caloric content of ethanol is converted to
mechanical energy with the same efficiency. And sure, other factors could
be at play such as driving conditions, ambient temperature, accuracy of
pump measurement etc. So I would like to encourage you to run similar
experiments as I continue my experiment so that we can collect a large
statistical sample and remove the random errors.

I also suggest that somebody posts some ideas on how to remove other
variables from this experiment so that MPG differences can be attributed
to gasoline only. E.g. Do not compare city driving with Highway driving,
short driving with long driving etc.
In my case, with my truck, I do mostly highway driving and I noticed that
the MPG using gas from any one particular gas station is surprisingly
consistent (no more than 2-3% variation). I cannot explain the 15-17%
difference that I have recently observed between these the two gas
stations I mentioned above.

When it comes to the less tangible ideas presented, I have to confess,
that I live in the US but I am originally from Europe and still spend a
lot of time in Europe. In Europe where there is a lot more regulation by
our “benevolent” governments we pay around $6 per gallon in most European
states. The true cost of gas in Europe is more or less the same as for
every other country, that is, somewhere between $2.00 and $2.50 per gallon
which covers paying for the international price of crude, refinement costs
and various transportation costs. The rest of the price up to the $6 level
is, you guessed it, taxes that our benevolent European governments levy on
us using the power that we relinquished to them a long time ago. My
general advice to you Americans is, whatever you do, do not follow
Europe’s example. If you do, you will also deprive us Europeans of the
still rather individualistic America you have now which is the only
remaining reminder to us and the rest of the world of what our countries
could have been had we not relinquished our power as individuals to the
collectivism of the state. As to how America got to be this fortunate,
it’s another story but, from what I see, America’s individualistic
fortitude will be temporary and short lived if you do not safeguard it.
After all, wouldn’t you agree that it would be difficult for America to
avoid the fate of almost every other country in the world? So be very
weary of relinquishing power to the collective thinking of the state, it
is a one way path, a trap that almost every other country in the world has
fallen into and cannot get out of. It happens gradually as it happened for
us Europeans. For many of us Europeans America is left as the only
reminder of what our countries could have been.

 

its easy to blame the greenies for everything. wrong!

if the oil companies werent making more money for selling less gas, and
the ethanol suppliers/farmers werent making money, it wouldnt have
happened. at all. ever.

same with smog checks- theyre a scam too. attrition would get rid of the
truly gross polluters.

 

excuses, excuses. excuses to charge more for gas. "its the greenies"!
its "nimby", etc. royal dutch shell closed a perfectly good refinery in
bakersfield california for no reason other than to tighten supply.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aqCQOg0SrBF8&refer=us

it always works out for them. always.

 

coff (bullshit) coff...

why would they WANT to increase supply when theyre getting whatever they
feel like charging now?

if you sold widgets on ebay for whatever you felt like charging, and
were not having supply problems, why would you want to spend the
millions to build a widget factory? that would glut the market and youd
be forced to lower prices.

 

You could Google it, you know. The first thing that shows up is:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question707.htm

which is actually a pretty reasonable analysis.

Regarding the water use, no it doesn't disappear, but you're taking
water that could be drunk, used to grow food, wash your car, take a
bath, etc., and are turning it into water vapor. Sure it'll rain
somewhere. Don't you know how much water California is already
"stealing" from Utah, they're really pissed about the current
allocation. Potable water is a valuable resource and you'll understand
that when the supply of that tightens up too.

Meanwhile, let's all have more kids and encourage more immigration,
legal or otherwise.

 

This link will let you see what mileage others are getting in real life.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList
I have been updating mine almost every time i fill up.
09/30/2005 266.40 8.009 33.3
10/07/2005 230.00 8.122 28.3
10/17/2005 225.80 7.769 29.1
10/24/2005 222.40 7.674 29.0
11/08/2005 221.90 7.658 29.0
12/14/2005 186.50 7.247 25.7
03/27/2006 236.30 8.681 27.2
04/05/2006 255.30 8.704 29.3
04/12/2006 224.40 7.521 29.8
04/25/2006 244.40 8.847 27.6

Go here first and create your own record https://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do
it graphs it out for you also.

 

Much would depend on the car. In my case, the Dodge van of which I
spoke was susceptible to pre-detonation (knock or pinging). This
severely reduces the efficiency of the engine. Loss of efficieny
equals lower milage. Using E90 gasoline greatly reduced pinging under
load on hot days. So, reduced pinging equals increase efficiency. A
net gain or loss in mileage? Who knows. All I know is my truck ran
better and I didn't "notice" a loss in mileage.

How timely is this? Popular Mechanics crunches the numbers:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y

nb

 

I think what you say is pretty much correct. However, it should be
mentioned that the idea of ethanol fuel is not inherently bad. Brazil
has a very successful program and expects to be completely independent
of imported oil soon. They use sugar cane which I think is less
energy intensive to grow, harvest and process. I wonder what the
economics of beets would be.

 

What is blocking US drilling in the Gulf is the fact that the
residents of a certain state understandably don't want drilling off
their coast. That might not matter except that their governor has a
brother in high office.

 

The basic problem with ethanol is how energy inefficient it is to
produce. Cornell said it takes 129 BTU's of energy to make 100 BTU's
of energy from ethanol. There is a vast world surplus of sugar just
now and even with that surplus I will bet Brazil is subsidizing the
hell out of their ethanol program. Sugar beets are grown for sugar
production in this country in a few places becasue the US govt places
strict quotas on sugar imports into the USA. If those import quotas
were removed, there would not be the first sugar beet grown in the US
nor would there be any cane sugar grown in FL - a very wealthy Cuban
family owns the FL cane sugar business.

Also the whole business of corn sugar production would dry up - it is
cheaper than cane sugar - which is a vastly better sugar - only because
of the huge govt subsidy on corn. When you roll all the govt ag
subsidies up together - you find a sticky web that controls the US
Senate and to a lesser degree the house. The Senate is easier to buy.
If anyone attempts to eliminate these welfare programs for the billion
dollar agri business sector - it won't happen - too many wealthy people
are dependent upon taxpayer handouts.

 

there are other states in the gulf as well- louisiana, texas, etc.

the fact of it is the oil companies are happy to bring the oil over from
the middle east, refine it, then charge what they feel like. and WTF are
YOU gonna do about it? nothin, thats what.

then they say "ummm... its the environmentalists!" and you, as one of
the lemmings, say "uhhh... okay!"

there *is no shortage*

no "gas lines", no rationing, no closed stations. just record profits.

they gotta make the money while they can, because dubya and his cronies
only have a few more years of looting to go! gotta make sure they can
all retire VERY comfortably, while the next administration (dem or
repub) has to deal with the aftermath.

 

The problem with that theory is that subsidies don't produce energy
directly. Brazilian oil imports are going down while energy use is
going up. The energy has to be coming from somewhere. Throwing money
at ethanol production wouldn't reduce fuel imports unless there was a
net gain in BTUs.

 

Got to agree. It's all about greed.
In a related matter, guess which former employer of our Vice Pres.
managed to botch the reconstruction of a major Iraqi oil pipeline? How
better to raise the price of oil than by keeping supply short? And that
contract was awarded sole source of course, no competition, no
scrutiny. And the contract is still in place despite non-performance.

 

You can hide that net gain in BTU in government budgets for a long
time. Employment rises, sugar production subsidies, etc etc. The
question is, are the economics right? Maybe it is in Brazil, but that
doesn't mean it is right for the US.

 

That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies
and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are
trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in
control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather
than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for
gas.

 

sure... but what kind of income or sales taxes are there? hows
unemployment? hows health care?

 

In Europe, income tax rates vary by country but generally speaking the top
marginal tax rates are somewhere between 40% to 55% in most countries and
these top rates kick in at moderate incomes, somewhere between
$50,000-$100,000 yearly income.

Sales tax rates in Europe (called VAT=Value Added Tax) range from 15% to
20% and there are much fewer exceptions to what is not taxed compared to
the typical US sales tax (eg in the US some states do not tax services).


There are also a lot of other taxes in Europe which the consumer often
does not even see. Eg. Most European cars have hefty luxury taxes on
automobiles that you Americans consider average (eg. a Jeep Cherokee).
Most countries have steep progressive taxes on automobile engine size.
There are levys on our utility bills for national TV channels that we may
never watch, and so on… a lot more indirect taxation compared to the US.

The healthcare systems are more difficult to compare although I am
somewhat familiar with the subject because I work in cancer research. Most
European countries have nationalized health care systems. In my experience
the better ones of these systems are comparable to some of the less
desirable HMO’s here in America. The PPO plans that American companies
typically offer are far superior to any European national healthcare
system.

I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that
ain’t broken.
For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil
that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the
oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I
work in cancer research).
In absolute dollar terms oil industry profits may seem large but when
sales volume is taken into account one finds that their profit margins are
below industry average. Recent data reports an average profit margin of
around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon
10.7% Chevron 10.7%)
By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34%
margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have
an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries
evil too?

As a European I am telling you, America aint’ broken so don’t try so hard
to fix it, especially if the fixing is trying to make it like Europe, a
Europe which having fallen so far behind in economic development is
finally grudgingly attempting some changes. But the moment America becomes
more like Europe and consequently stops pulling the world economy wagon,
Europe will surely and merrily go back to its old ways.

Unfortunately, no matter what I may say, you Americans will also gradually
and predictably invite government intervention in more and more aspects of
your life thereby falling into the same inevitable trap that every other
nation in this world has fallen. As a matter of fact you never escaped
that fate, you are just earlier on in this process because this is still a
new country having been colonized just 3 centuries ago.

 

Find a new place to buy gas. Ethanol has a lower energy content, so unless the
price is lower, you are getting less for your money.

 

the secretary of energy said they expect rising gas prices for the next
3 years, until our esteemed leader leaves office.

has the price of gas in europe doubled over the past year? are italians
now paying $10/gal?

because thats whats happened. gas was always under the $2 mark, usually
around $1.50/gal. now its double that.

exxon mobil just posted record net profits last quarter... higher than
walmart. thats AFTER all expenses are paid.

have they all doubled what they charge in the past year, just because
they can?

pharmaceutical companies have taken a lot of flack for selling the same
drugs cheaper to the rest of the world than they do to americans. which
is why some americans go to canada or mexico for prescription drugs.