for the guys that are into recreational oil changing...

Good post man... Gotta love the way a little article would generate so much
banter.

As for the high efficiency oil filters, what would be a good brand to go
with? Is the stock honda filter a good choice to stick with?

 

Are you sure of that? I had a Frontier and my reading of the maual
indicated that changing oil according to the "severe" scedule was open
to a broad interpertation.

Here is what was in my 2006 Frontier Owners Guide:

Operation under the following conditions may require more frequent oil
and filter changes:
* repeated short distance driving at cold outside temperatures
* driving in dusty conditions
* extensive idling
* towing a trailer
* stop and go commuting

Here is what the Nissan Maintenance Guide says:

Depending on your driving habits and local conditions, you should
follow one of the three maintenance schedules listed below. Use these
guidelines to determine which maintenance schedule to use:

PREMIUM MAINTENANCE* (Every 3,750 miles or 3 months, whichever comes
first)
Premium Maintenance is a Nissanrecommended option that is suitable for
all driving habits and local conditions. Nissan developed Premium
Maintenance for owners who want the ultimate in preventative
maintenance. With Premium Maintenance, more maintenance items are
regularly checked or replaced than
with either Schedule 1 or Schedule 2 maintenance schedules.

Using the Premium Maintenance schedule may optimize the performance,
reliability, and resale value of your vehicle.

SCHEDULE 1 (Every 3,750 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first)

Schedule 1 features the same 3,750-mile service intervals as Premium
Maintenance; however, with Schedule 1 fewer maintenance items are
regularly
checked or replaced than with the Premium Maintenance schedule. Use
Schedule 1 if you primarily operate your vehicle under any of these
conditions:

* Repeated short trips of less than 5 miles in normal temperatures or
less than 10 miles in freezing temperatures
* Stop-and-go traffic in hot weather or low-speed driving for long
distances
* Driving in dusty conditions or on rough, muddy, or salt-spread roads
* Towing a trailer, or using a camper or car-top carrier

SCHEDULE 2 (Every 7,500 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first)

Schedule 2 features 7,500-mile service intervals; with Schedule 2
fewer maintenance items are regularly checked or replaced than with
Schedule 1.
Generally, Schedule 2 applies only to highway driving in temperate
conditions. Use Schedule 2 only if you primarily operate your vehicle
under conditions other than those listed in Schedule 1.

* Premium Maintenance is a Nissan-recommended option; however, owners
need not perform such maintenance in order to maintain the warranties
which come with their Nissan. Premium Maintenance may not be available
outside the United States, please inquire of your dealer.

****End Quotes****

It seems to me the wording is designed to encourage owners to use the
3,750 service interval, but really, how many people make repeated
short trips of less than 5 miles? My assumption would be if you do a
five mile commute, but still drive far enough at least weekly to warm
the car up, this short trip requirement wouldn't apply.

The stop and go driving requirement and low spped for long distance
requirements are undefined. I suppose if you live in LA, then you may
always be in stop and go traffic. While this might be hard on your
brakes, do you really think it is all that hard on the engine oil? I
suppose if you spend hours of time stopped and idling, then you need
to change your oil more often. This is where a system like the GM Oil
Monitor is very useful. It actually counts engine revolutions and
modifies oil change intervals accordingly.

I like the Ford descriptions of Normal and Severe Service better:

Determine which maintenance schedule to follow

It's important to follow the maintenance schedule that most closely
mirrors your driving habits and the conditions under which you drive.
For this reason, the Scheduled Maintenance Guide is divided into two
basic maintenance schedules: the Normal Schedule (further segmented
into Trucks, Fullsize Vans & SUVs and Cars & CUVs) and Special
Operating Conditions.

Determining which maintenance schedule is right for you is easy. For
the most part, do you drive your Ford, Lincoln or Mercury vehicle
under typical, everyday conditions? If so, follow the Normal Schedule
Trucks, Fullsize Vans & SUVs, or Normal Schedule Cars & CUVs.

Special Operating Conditions

However, if one or more of the Special Operating Conditions outlined
below better describes how you typically operate your vehicle, you
will need to perform some maintenance services more often than the
Normal Schedule recommends.

.. Towing a trailer or carrying heavy loads
.. Extensive idling and/or driving at low-speeds for long distances
.. Driving in dusty conditions
.. Off-road operation
.. Use of E85 fuel 50% of the time or greater (flex fuel vehicles only)

Important: For further details and information regarding these Special
Operating Conditions see page 42.
.....

Items Needing Special Attention

If you operate your Ford/Lincoln/Mercury primarily in one of the more
demanding Special Operating Conditions listed below, you will need to
have some items maintained more frequently. If you only occasionally
operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to
perform the additional maintenance. For specific recommendations, see
your Ford or Lincoln Mercury Dealership Service Advisor or Technician.

****End Quote****

Notice the statements including the words "primarily" and
"occasionally." To me these implies most owners are exempt.

I think the systems like GM's (and others) that use oil life monitors
that adjust the change interval based on driving patterns are the
best. Toyota took an approach that at least eliminates confusion -
they did away with the whole normal/severe schedule confusion by just
saying to change the oil every 5000 miles. Of course all of this is
just for the US. In Europe oil change intervals are generally
specified to be much longer - even for Toyotas that use the same (?)
engines as US Toyotas. I have had people claim this is because
European specifications for oil are much better than in the US. Does
this mean if I use oil that meets the European specs, I could go even
longer?

Ed

 

While eveyone should make their own decisions on this, I can think of
a few "reasonable" reasons why it is useful to at least let people
know 3000 mile oil changes are not usually beneficial:

1) To counteract the constant din from compnies like Jiffy-Lube that
have brainwashed gnerations of people into thinking you must change
your oil every 3000 miles.

2) To make people aware that cars and oils are much better than was
the case when their Fathers used to change their oil.

3) Becasue some people are concerned about the environement and don't
like seeing all that perfectly good oil being drained from engines.

4) Just becasue we want people to know the facts so they can make an
informed decision.

Ed

 

What most people want, I think, is to have a car that goes when you turn
the key, and doesnt crater before you are ready to trade it in and get a
new one, all at a miraculously low price.

We probably keep our cars longer than most people. 8-10 years for
us is not unusual. And I want minimum trouble.

I use the oil change interval recommended by the maker, no matter what
an oil analysis might indicate. If I err, it tends to be on the side of
changing
sooner than later.

But as you say, everyone must make that decision for himself. It's your
car, do what you want with it.

 

On 31/03/10 5:33 PM, Bob Jones wrote:

The 5 or 10 miles per trip is if you _exclusively_ do short trips. Ditto
for idling and stop and go driving. What they're worried about is that
the water that accumulates in the oil will not be vaporized. A freeway
drive of 30 minutes or so will take care of the problem with water
condensing into the oil.

That's why an interval of 7500 miles or six months, whichever occurs
first, is a better spec. It takes into account drivers that are doing
short trips only by default.

Jiffy Lube tries to convince everyone that they qualify for "severe
service" but don't fall for it.

 

Did you bother to follow JB's link and read the suggested oil change
intervals he is promoting?
Based on your sentence above, obviously not.

 

I can't remember anyone in my family ever trading in a car becasue the
engine was worn out. It always sem to be other stuff that finally
makes the car/truck undesirable.

I tend to get tired of vehicles sooner than that, although there are
exceptions. But on the farm I usually keep things forever. My oldest
tractor is 30 years old and still on the original engine. I change the
oil in it every 150 engine hours or so. I figure this is roughly
comparable to 5000 mile oil changes, although the usage is more severe
than what you would see in a car.

When I had a Saturn with the oil life monitor, I was concnerned that I
wasn't changing the oil often enough. I am not sure I ever actually
waited until the light come on to change the oil. However one time
when the oil had over 7500 miles of use, I decided to send a sample
off to be analysed (I used Blackstone Labs). The analysis showed the
oil still qualified as a 5W30 oil with minimal contamination. The
report indicated that it was good until at least 10,000 miles. Of
course I had already changed it at that point. At other times I pulled
samples from other vehicles I own (or the SO owns) including a Nissan
Frontier, a Ford Fusion, a Ford Expedition, and a Toyota RAV4. All had
around 5000 miles on the oil at the time I pulled the samples for
analysis. In every case the analysis claimed the oil was still good
for many more miles.

Changing oil at 3000 mile intervals is a hard habit for me to break.
However, I have the perfect test case in my family - my older sister.
Until she got cars with oil change indicators, she never remembered to
change her oil at all and I had to constantly remind her. Before the
oil change indicators, she would often exceed 10,000 miles on a
change. With her newer cars, she never changed the oil befor ethe
reminders, so her last Honda never got oil changes sooner than every
7500 miles. When she got rid of it last year, it had over 150,000
miles on the odometer. The car was a POS, but the engine started
perfectly and ran fine. I can't see how changing the oil more oftne
could have benefited her. So, with her new Toyota, I feel she is in
fine shape. It has a reminder that comes on every 5000 miles.

People always blame 3000 mile oil changes on the wisdom of their
Fathers and/or mechanics. My Father always complianed that I changed
oil too often (and on the farm changing tractors can get expensive).
He thought 5000 miles was soon enough. My favorite mechanic agrees,
5000 miles is plenty soon, and he has a financial interest in
encouraging more often changes. One of my neighbors uses synthetic oil
in his Silverado HD diesel. He changes the filter every 5000 miles,
but only changes the oil every 10,000 miles. The truck has nearly
100,000 miles and likely will be beat into a pile of junk before the
engine give up (he uses it to pull trailers frequently).

Ed

 

The link Dr. Beam provides indicates a 10,000 mile oil change interval
for cars.
It goes on to say "Mileage can be extended furthest in gasoline
engines by using higher quality motor oils containing a high total
base number (TBN)."

So anything less than 10,000 miles between oil changes is recreational
and unnecessary according to the OP.
Not 2000, not 3000, not 5000, not 7500 miles.

 

Obviously watching US TV has reduced your reading skills to very low
level.

I'll put it in terms that even a simpleton should be able to understand.

Somebody said

"These minute particles pose no danger to
your engine, but they cause the oil to darken."

I responded that although that holds true most of the time there can be
unusual circumstances where those fine particles do cause harm.

-jim

 

The guys who write /Paradise Garage/ did a great study on this several
years ago. While aimed at GM 5.7L small-blocks (IIRC they did this with
a Firebird), they did a good job of combining theory with practice.
They also gathered some test data.

Here's the link: <
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/interval.html >

I've adopted some of their ideas for my 'vette and for a new 3.6L VVT-DI
engine. The only major change I've made was changing the filter more
frequently than I change the oil.

1. I use Synthetic Oil exclusively
2. I top up to the 'full' mark on the stick whenever it's about 1/2
pint down.
3. I change when the oil life computer hits 30% or it's been 10K miles.
4. I change the filter every 5K (and top up to 'full')

I performed an arbitrary change on the VVT-DI engine when it turned 2500
miles. At that point, the oil life gauge was showing 72% -- I just
wanted to clear out excessive 'break-in uglies.'

Note -- neither of these engine types has a 'sludge' reputation so that
wasn't a consideration. That might be a consideration for Toyota
owners. YMMV

 

Maybe for people who own older Toyotas, but Toyota fixed whatever was
causing the problem with sludge. All of the Toyotas in my immeadiate
family (3 RAV4s, a Highlander, and a 4Runner) have the automatic
reminder that comes after 5000 miles, so I am not worried about
sludge.

Ed

 

So "chemical" and "harmful" are one and the same to you?

Define "chemical".

 

Thank you for accommodating me.

That statement is much more clearly written than your previous jumble.

 

Clearly, the above does not say that. Why are you acting stupid?

No desire to play your little agenda game. Defining 'chemical' will in no
way lead to a greater depth of dicussion on why it is bad to needlessly
expose yourself to harmful chemicals. Keep cleaning/disinfecting your home
hourly if you believe that it won't/can't hurt you.

 

Interesting point: "The HE filters used in this study claimed
filtration of particles to 1-2 [microns], much better than standard
filters of 30-50 [microns]. Using standard filters is one reason that
motor oil needs to be changed; it gets dirty with small particles
which results in engine wear. In this regard, standard filters have
not improved over the years compared to significant improvements in
motor oil quality. The oil change interval set in warranties is a
result of standard filters being the limiting factor, not the motor
oil quality. Hence, higher quality filters will help to extend motor
oil life to its full potential."

This raises the question: would it be safe to keep engine oil for
10,000 miles if you replace JUST the oil filter every 5,000 miles?

Is an HE filter necessary? Oil analysis comparisons of the HE Fram X2
filter vs. a normal CarQuest filter would have been nice.

Maybe I can do an experiment with my '96 Camry (176k miles). For my
wife's car, the 5,000 mile oil change will remain...

Michael

 

The problem is that the oil filter is filtering out the small particles.
So you still have the small particles going right through the filter.

Only if the comparisons include small particles.

And how are you going to determine the results of the experiment. You
have an n of 1 (one sample). Not very useful.

This doesn't take into account that the additives in the oil get used up.

Jeff

 

Good point.

Then again the ('96) car's seen oil change intervals of 8000 miles
anyway. Was thinking of pulling the valve cover to see how it's
doing. In the absence of HE vs. regular oil filter data, was thinking
of just changing the (regular) filter, leaving the oil in, for say
8000 miles again. Doesn't the manual specify 7500 miles? Don't have
it on me at the moment...

The article implied that oil additives aren't the limiting factor:
it's the oil filter that is the limiting factor.

Michael

 

And then there is that incredibly noisy minority of people who actually
think they are giving good advice.

 

Did you read the stuff you just posted (bolow)? It says 3750 (severe) and
7500 (normal).

 

I am saying "no," though it is conjecture like everyone else's. Honda
itself says the normal schedule "is fine for most drivers." From my
2003 Civic's manual:
---
The "normal" schedule is fine for most drivers, even if they
occasionally drive in severe conditions.

Follow the "severe" schedule only if you drive in one or more of these
conditions /most of the time/" [emphasis is Honda's, not mine]:

Trips of less than 5 miles (less than 10 in freezing weather)
Extremely hot weather (over 90 degrees F)
Extensive idling or stop-and-go driving
Trailer towing, car-top carrier, or mountain driving
Muddy, dusty, or de-iced roads"
---

In addition, I think oil change analyses will support the claim that
most folks' Hondas are not driven under severe conditions. The
original study that Jim B cited proposes a 10k mile change interval
for passenger cars. Look at the study itself, and one will see 40
passenger cars, used as a fleet by the California Department of
General Services, were examined. Again, it is only conjecture, but
ISTM that such fleet cars would see much stop and go driving. Consumer
Reports found similar for NYC taxis in 1996:
http://www.moneybluebook.com/articles/consumerreports.oilchange.php .