Ford Beats Toyota in Quality for 2007

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Huck Flynn, Jun 8, 2007.

  1. Huck Flynn

    80 Knight Guest

    Actually they are the same car, regardless of who put's it together. They
    were a joint venture between GM and Toyota.
     
    80 Knight, Jun 8, 2007
    #21
  2. Huck Flynn

    B A R R Y Guest

    Think about that statement again...

    For an example that I'm familiar with, take the Toyota Tacoma. A vehicle
    that _is_ the same vehicle, but is assembled in two different plants.
    Did you know there have been defects that only affected one plant or the
    other? My own early-production '05 Tacoma had an issue that affected
    only trucks built in the NUMMI plant before a certain date. Baja-built
    trucks didn't have the problem.

    Why would you think the Vibe / Matrix would be different?

    I'll bet any manufacturer that makes vehicles in multiple locations will
    have similar situations.

    Defects can be design or assembly defects. Who assembles a product is a
    big part of the latter.
     
    B A R R Y, Jun 8, 2007
    #22
  3. CR reliability data is virtually identical for these two cars with the
    Pontiac being rated slightly better in a six areas and slightly worse
    in one. (These differences are extremely small and could easily be
    due to random error.) Comparing the Vibe to the Grand Am; the Vibe is
    better (often much better) in 15 of 16 areas and worse in one.
    Conclusion: the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Jun 8, 2007
    #23
  4. Huck Flynn

    LouieG Guest

    J Thought that Toyota was going to buy Chevrolet, and the new car
    company was to be called Toyolet...........
     
    LouieG, Jun 8, 2007
    #24
  5. Huck Flynn

    Wickeddoll Guest

    "LouieG" <
    OK, you have this coming...

    c'mere...

    *fwap*

    Natalie
     
    Wickeddoll, Jun 8, 2007
    #25
  6. IMO, it isn't that JPD IQS isn't statistically valid - I assume it is,
    but I don't know. The problem is that it is a joke. It is deceptive
    and misleading and the results don't seem to agree with more objective
    sources (i.e. ones who don't sell their results for commercial
    purposes.)

    Just for fun, look at the JDP 2007 IQS site:

    http://www.jdpower.com/autos/quality-ratings/

    Inexplicably, Toyota is rated *higher* in Overall Quality. Contrary
    to the subject line, Toyota beat Ford in Overall Quality, in Overall
    Mechanical Quality and tied in Overall Design Quality.

    Note that there are six individual ratings areas, 3 mechanical and 3
    design. Toyota outscored Ford in two of three mechanical quality
    areas and tied in the third. Toyota and Ford each won one of the
    design areas and one was tied. What was the only area where Ford beat
    Toyota? Features & Accessories Quality - Design. What is that, you
    ask? According to JDP, "this score is based on problems with the
    seats, stereo/navigation system, heater, air conditioner, and
    sunroof." Sounds like a genuine measure of mechanical problems until
    you read the general description of what they mean by a design
    problem: "this score is based on problems where controls or features
    may work as designed, but are difficult to use or understand (i.e.,
    overly complicated controls/features that are difficult to operate due
    to poor location)."

    So, a car which has no mechanical defects at all could get beaten by a
    less reliable car if the reliable car has a confusing stereo, an ugly
    tail and the doors don't make a pleasing sound when slammed. That is
    the problem with the JDP IQS. Of course, if its real purpose is to
    sell advertising, their system gives them the maximum number of awards
    to hand out.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Jun 8, 2007
    #26
  7. Huck Flynn

    Jeff Guest

    That's not inexplicable. It is easy to understand. JDP IQS is a rating
    of the number of problems people found in the first 90 days of
    ownership. I would think that Overall Mechanical qualtiy and design
    quality took into account other things than what people reported in the
    1st 90 days.
    Who are their costumers? The auto industry.

    Jeff
     
    Jeff, Jun 8, 2007
    #27
  8. Huck Flynn

    C. E. White Guest

    Who would that be? If you mean Consumer Reports, well that is the joke.
    You are confusing two different facets of the JD Power results. The page you
    referenced was overall for all Ford/Toyota Models. The press release never
    used the words "Ford beats Toyota." What it said was "Ford Motor Company
    Captures Most Awards in 2007 Initial Quality Study" and if you read the
    text, they further qualify it by saying "Ford Motor Company garners five top
    model segment awards-more than any other automobile corporation this
    year..." The Ford beat Toyota headlines were not JD Power words, they were
    the words of the newspaper editors trying to attract people to the article.
    Although it is factually correct in a very limited way (Ford had more top
    rated models than Toyota in the 2007 Initial Quality study), it was
    incorrect in the larger context. Toyota had fewer problems per 100 vehicles
    than Ford (112 vs. 120) and I suspect more Toyota models rated higher than
    Ford models than the opposite.

    I do think it is interesting that you think JD Powers is biased toward Ford
    or GM, when the company has literally preached the Toyota gospel for 10+
    years. Like any survey that depends on the honesty of the participants, the
    JD Power survey can't be 100% accurate. However, for you to criticize JD
    Power is not fair. When you allude to more objective surveys, I am guessing
    you mean Consumer Reports. The fact that CR doesn't sell advertising doesn't
    necessarily make them objective. They have to sell magazines to stay in
    business. If you start looking through the on-line consumer reviews section
    of their automotive section, you'll quickly notice that Toyota owners write
    5 to 10 times as many reviews as Ford owners. This suggests to me that there
    are 5 to 10 times as many CR subscribers that own Toyotas as own Fords. So
    when CR reviews a car, do you suppose they might think twice before saying
    bad things about a Toyota? If they start trashing Toyotas, don't you think
    there might be a backlash from Toyota owners?

    Ed
     
    C. E. White, Jun 9, 2007
    #28
  9. This is true, but the perception is by people that never drove or never
    owned one. The nameplate is what makes the difference to them. It has
    nothing to do with reality.
     
    Edwin Pawlowski, Jun 9, 2007
    #29
  10. Huck Flynn

    80 Knight Guest

    I can agree with that, but like Edwin said, for some people, it's all about
    who's name is on the grill. Some see "Toyota Matrix" and 'ohhh and ahh',
    then looking over at the "Pontiac Vibe" and start nagging about what an
    awful car it is. I never did say people were smart.
     
    80 Knight, Jun 9, 2007
    #30

  11. This (112 v 120) is what I hate about the way they present this data.
    You look at those numbers and people think WOW, 120 is a LOT more then
    112. Or if you look at the bigger list you'll find some models with
    101 problems to compare to the one with 120. And the consumer is left
    with the impression there is this HUGE difference of 19 points between
    these cars and will most likely be thinking "If I by the ACME sedan
    I'll have 19 more problems then if I buy the SQUAT Coupe. But what it
    really means is that the ONE ACME vehicle he buys will have 1.2
    problems to worry about and the SQUAT will have 1.01 problems. What's
    that mean in practical terms? It means SQUAT, i.e., nothing. He'll
    need to take either car back to the dealer to get the problem fixed.
    It maybe, might, possibly mean that over the course of a couple years
    the ACME will go back to the shop 2 times and the SQUAT will go back 3
    times. Or depending on what breaks and when, they both may only go
    back 2 times. So the bottom line for the vast majority of car buyers
    is that all these cars are pretty much the same as far as how much
    "trouble" they are going to have in terms of these JDPowers figures.
    It's only if you compare the cars on the tail end of the distribution,
    one with a rating of 73 to one with a rating of 130 that there is
    really enough difference in "quality" that it should matter to a
    buyer. But CU and the like are taking these trivial differences for
    the vast majority of cars and turning the trivial into the difference
    between giving one a 2 star rating and the other a 5 star rating.
     
    Ashton Crusher, Jun 9, 2007
    #31
  12. Huck Flynn

    Ricky Bobby Guest

    Toyota will be on par with the big 3 in terms of quality if they keep trying
    to buid more cars in less time with fewer employees. I drive a Toyota, happy
    with it. But will be going back to an accord next car. But, this is a honda
    group, so who cares about toyota?
     
    Ricky Bobby, Jun 9, 2007
    #32
  13. Huck Flynn

    rgentle Guest

    I have had a Toyota & a Honda and hated them! No room or really good
    gas mileage. I own a Ford & a Camero
     
    rgentle, Jun 9, 2007
    #33
  14. I agree 100%.
     
    Bonehenge (B A R R Y), Jun 9, 2007
    #34
  15. Nope. All of these ratings are from the 2007 JDP IQS. Follow the
    link and see.
    Exactly. The secret of how Ford "beat Toyota" is in the number of top
    rated models - Ford had more than Toyota. But the real secret is that
    half of the rating has nothing to do with quality as most readers
    would define it in this context. It includes styling and other
    subjective appraisals and weights them evenly with such questions as,
    "Did the transmission fail?"

    So why is the headline "Ford has more top models than Toyota" instead
    of "Toyota has higher overall quality than Ford?" It comes back to
    JDP's business; selling endorsements to advertisers. "Toyota beats
    Ford" is like "dog bites man." Toyota isn't going to pay money for a
    JDP badge that says what everyone already knows and assumes. Ford, on
    the other hand has a major credibility problem at this point and will
    gladly pay for an endorsement from an independent, well-known survey
    organization.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Jun 9, 2007
    #35
  16. Huck Flynn

    Jeff Guest

    Gordon McGrew wrote:
    The headlines are written by newspapers, not by JD Powers. The headlines
    could have just as easily been "Toyota takes half the truck and SUV
    initial quality awards."

    Jeff
     
    Jeff, Jun 9, 2007
    #36
  17. Whereas C. E. White is an authority. Sorry, you have to give evidence
    if you want to make this assertion. I have documented why I think JDP
    is a joke. Your turn.
    Actually, I was aware of that. The point of my post was really that
    the test criteria itself is goofy. Car A and Car B have equal quality
    with three problems each: Car A had a transmission failure, a cooling
    system failure and one of the doors fell off. Car B has an ugly front
    end, an ugly rear end and the doors make a tinny sound when slammed.

    Where did I say they were biased toward Ford? They are not biased
    toward or against any manufacturer. They are biased toward making
    money. There are so many different ways to spin and sell the results
    that you can show anybody won. You got money? JDP has an award for
    you. "Among non-premium brands, Kia posts the largest improvement in
    ranking, moving from 24th in 2006 to 12th in 2007 and earning an award
    for the Kia Rio/Rio5 for the second year in a row."

    From a consumer standpoint, they are not biased. They are irrelevant.
    You are right. JDP serves its customers (manufacturers) and CR serves
    its customers (consumers). Note that the CR site doesn't include a
    button to get a dealer quote.
    The CR survey reports what owners said broke on their cars. This is a
    pretty objective survey and the results are consistent internally and
    with external reality. Also, they survey them every year (not just at
    90 days and five years)Japanese cars started beating domestics in the
    CR reliability survey back in the early 1970s. I guarantee that most
    CR readers were not driving Japanese cars at the time.

    As for the CR car testing program; even that is kept as objective as
    possible. For example, a car would have to look pretty sharp or
    pretty weird for them to even comment on it. (Pontiac Aztec achieved
    this.) Even then it isn't considered in the ratings. I respect their
    professional judgment and experience on subjective matters as displays
    and controls, controllability, seat comfort, etc. more than the
    opinion of Ford owners evaluating Fords.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Jun 9, 2007
    #37
  18. CU (CR) does not use these results for anything. They do their own
    surveys which find that some cars are much more reliable than other
    over the course of 5+ years. The differences are not trivial.

    JDP is a joke.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Jun 9, 2007
    #38
  19. I hear that Cameros have lots of luggage room and great gas mileage.
    Camaros OTOH are pieces of shit.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Jun 9, 2007
    #39
  20. Huck Flynn

    razz Guest

    As a former toy mech, I can assure you that toy are exactly that....toys.
    They definitely are no better than anyone else.
     
    razz, Jun 9, 2007
    #40
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