Fusion vs Camry and Accord - the Ford Challenge

IIRC, They had NO speed limit posted. When the Feds dropped the National
55MPH limit, Montana removed all the signs, and had a 110 Soft limit. If
you were going faster, they would pull you over and give you a $5 ticket
for "Unsafe speed", payable to the officer at the time of offense.

They were forced to change it, and settled on 75, if memory serves.

 

Because the "new" 150K vehicle is likely to need just as much in
repairs when you buy it or soon thereafter.

 

What difference can it make?? No wonder you shy away from older and high
mileage cars. If you are facing repairs that cost half the value of the car
you chose the car poorly indeed!

A badly treated car, or even a well treated car that has serious problems,
is easy to root out by the time it has 100K on the clock. The asking price
for a winner and for a loser is usually about the same, while the actual
value as a personal vehicle can be thousands of dollars difference. (And
never ever buy from a used car lot; they always want more than any car they
have is worth.) I do my own maintenance and repairs, so older cars are a big
bargain for me. That's why I would repair a good 150K vehicle for a tiny
fraction of the price of another 150K mile vehicle; it still has at least
100K miles left in it. When I am spending more than about $500 per year for
maintenance and repair on a regular basis it's time to move on. By that time
I usually have more than ten years in the car, I have spent less than I
would have on a new car, lost less in depreciation and paid less for
insurance and license fees.

A new car is always a gamble - nobody on Earth has reliability data on a
2007 anything, and there is no way to tell if you are getting a lemon - it
just happens. The first owner takes the biggest risks. Buy what you wish, as
long as I can buy pre-proven cars. I don't care how badly naive purchasers
have done. It has worked *very* well for me.

Mike

 

An old car is a gamble, too. The transmission might be about to break, there
may be new brakes in the cars near future and the bearings might be bared
soon.

Everything is a gamble, even old cars.

Jeff

 

That isn't a problem if you do your homework and look the car over right. If
transmission problems are fairly common, like they are in Hondas, look the
unit over carefully and reduce the offer by enough it isn't a problem. I
will already have checked on the price and availability of a guaranteed
tranny from my favorite wrecking yard and figured that into the offering
price dependent on the likelihood of failure. For bulletproof transmissions
like the AW-70 I only need to look for leaks and clean fluid. If there is
going to be a common showstopper problem the car isn't on my list to start
with.

Brakes? Except cars with such pervasive ABS problems that wrecking yards
aren't likely to have good replacement parts (homework, remember?) I can
afford to put $100 into brakes. New cars will need brakes sometime, too. A
peek at the front disks tells most of the story and takes a few seconds; if
they are very worn my offer goes down by $100. Usually the seller is happy
to get off so cheap for repairs the car needs one way or another. I'm
already under there to look at the CV joint boots and the undercarriage
anyway.

For every seller there is a buyer. For good cars I can be a buyer, for junk
cars there are naive or desperate buyers and wrecking yards.

Mike

 

You're still taking a gamble.

If you buy a brand new car, you still have a warranty. And you cam buy a
certified used car which comes with a warranty, too, for a huge price. (In
the NY Times yesterday, there was a certified used car that was bought by a
buyer who later noticed that the paint on the front half and back half of
the car didn't match. The mechanic the buyer took the car to noticed the
welds in the frame - the car's halves started out in different cars. The
halves even had different VINs. The cars they started out on crashed. The
good halves were welded together.)

No matter what, you're taking a gamble. You might get the one bad AX80
transmission or an engine that is about to blow up.

With knowledge, you put the odds on your side. But they are still odds.

Jeff

 

Yes - but knowledge is permanent; it always improves odds. Relying on luck
always reduces the odds. With warranty, whether you pay above the table or
it is rolled into the car's price, you lose every time. Warranties only
redistribute your loss. If you don't use it, the money is simply gone. If
you do use it, you've suffered the loss you were hedging against.

Personally, I despise warranties. I have learned there are few mechanics who
can troubleshoot as well as I can, and under warranty the choice of mechanic
is pot luck. The dealer drives the bus and the customer has to ride. I've
gone through that with my new F350 SD work truck and it really bites.

Mike

 

Why would anybody buy anything with that much mileage, if they could afford
to buy something with less mileage, just to put even more money into a high
mileage car?


mike

 

Sound to me like your saying a high mileage car that you know needs lots of
work in better than a newer lower mileage car that may need work someday,
but the former is a better buy because it' 'cheaper.' Me thinks you would
like to eat prime cut beef, but can only afford baloney LOL

mike

 

You are assuming that they bought it with that much mileage. I bought
my 1994 GS-R with 45K; it has 157K now. I could certainly afford to
go out and buy a new car. I like the GS-R a lot and choose to spend
the money on other things (and save it for the future.) Does it cost
more to maintain than a 2007? You bet. But if you think the total
cost of ownership for my 1994 is higher than for a comparable 2007,
you are even more nuts than we thought.

 

No, he is saying that if your are knowledgeable and careful you can
buy a good 150K car for very little money. You may be able to drive
it for several years before it needs a "half the price" repair. Even
if you are wrong and you only get six months out of it, you haven't
lost much because you don't have that much invested.

Like you said, Mike, for the cost of a typical 150K car, you only have
to drive it a year to get your money's worth.

 

That would be dumb; the purpose is to put *less* money into it. It's like
the stock market; if you don't know how to win, don't play.

The reasons to buy a high mileage car are to get one with a proven record on
the road (after all those miles it is still going strong, or it is passed up
as somebody else's loss) and for lower ownership costs. It doesn't pay if
you are going to have a shop do the work, but for the DIYer it offers much
lower operating costs and less to lose in the extreme than a new or
mid-mileage car does.

On the new car side, consider the experience of a family friend who bought a
new Escort last decade. The warranty had run out but the payments had not
when the water pump seized, destroying the timing belt and the engine. She
could have bought an "extended warranty" (repair insurance) but that means
even more money, win or lose.

Mike

 

You're not paying attention at all. I'm saying a used car that needs
specific work and costs that much less for it is better than a low mileage
car that is an unknown. You have not the vaguest idea how to evaluate a used
car. That's okay as long as you stick with new cars, but is even worse if
you are gambling on mid-mileage cars. They hide their secrets well and you
don't know how to look for them.

I have had three new cars in 37 years. In 1984 I bought a new Dodge 600ES
(same as a LeBaron) and found out how expensive a new car can be. It was
worth less than $2000 six years later, having depreciated more than $11000;
nearly $2000 per year. That was on top of the continuous work it needed. At
six years and 100K the timing chain wore out on schedule and needed
replacement. Okay, step one: remove engine to gain access to timing chain
cover! With conscientious care it had become a car I would not buy, although
at 50K miles it seemed okay - a textbook illustration of the 100K principle,
but that time I was the loser. I have never in my life had a used car that
cost even half that much per year, and only had one (not counting the Lotus)
that needed as much work.

Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
The trick is to leave the bad judgement to those who buy new.

Mike

 

Any time you buy a used car you are buying a vehicle that the previous owned
no longer wanted. Why would anybody want to buy somebody else's problems?
LOL

mike

 

Actually I know more about used cars than you will ever know. I was Group
Sales Manager for one of the largest mega dealerships groups on the east
cost for ten years.

Get real, the only reason anybody buys a used car is they can not afford to
by a new car. The only reason anybody buys a high mileage used cars is they
can not afford a later model used car, with less mileage. LOL

Take the advice I gave you and go look at cars as they are traded, then
again when the are on the lot for resale, and you will see what I mean by
the statement one can never know for sure how a vehicles was used or abused
or if it was maintained properly or not buy its previous owner(s)


mike

 

Not all used cars are "someone else's problems"...

Many people lease for 2 or 3 years, and then trade in. Many buy a new car
every 5 years, and trade in the old one. That doesn't mean there is any
problem with the old car...

 

Because he wasn't equipped to deal with the situation and I am. A tremendous
number of cars around 100K miles find themselves on the market because it's
time to change the timing belt and the owner just found out what it costs to
have it done. They want a new car and I get a great car with a brand new
timing belt for a hundred or so extra bucks (after offering $500 off because
the belt is due, and the seller feels he is still coming out ahead) and a
day's work. Life is good!

Mike

 

You know about new cars of the sort you lease, and I'll grant you know a
*lot* more about that than I do. If you and I were to buy new cars or low
mileage used cars I have no doubt you would get a better deal and choose a
better car. But you don't have the foggiest how to make an older car pay
it's way. It's an entirely different world, and one in which DIY is crucial,
but within those constraints the reliability can actually be better and the
costs are much lower. Selling cars is not the same as owning them.

Mike

 

You are flat wrong. I could afford to buy a new car (and I have in
the past), but on the last two occasions I have decided to buy used
because it fit my needs. Just because I have the money doesn't mean I
want to spend it on a new car.

I would point out that the reverse situation is quite common. People
who can't afford a new car go out and buy them every day.

That is probably true generally, except for people like Pardee who can
maintain them cheaply with sweat equity. However, many people who
could afford to buy a new/newer car choose instead to maintain the car
they already own even though it may have a lot of miles on it. If it
is a high quality car (Honda or Toyota), there is a good chance it
will continue to be inexpensive to maintain and, if it does blow up,
they can always walk away from it with minimal loss. Or they can fix
it for about what they would pay in sales tax on a replacement
vehicle.

 

I know new cars and old cars as well. I know old cars cost money to keep
running, I own a 1941, 1964, 1971 and a 1983 with 100K to 300K on the
clocks. Whenever one of them needs work it costs a fortune and parts can be
a problem. I recently paid $500 for a worn out part that will need to
rebuilt at a machine shop before it can be installed. My old cars receive
the most meticulous preventive maintenance. They all look and run like new
but I would not chance a cross county trip an any one of them. LOL

Mike