GM U.S. July sales down 19.5 percent, Honda up 10.2%

You avoided the questions.......again What makes you believe the 'fuel(s)
of the future' will be less expensive than gasoline?

If buyers really want small underpowered vehicles as you suggest, what do
you think is the reason that every import brands vehicles got bigger and
more powerful over the past ten years. The fact is they are ALL bigger and
more powerful, with more new trucks and SUVs than small cars. Todays Civic
a bigger car than any other Civic.


mike hunt

 

That is true a recall simply means they have discover a problem and are
offering to fix it for free. However Ford has sold many million more
vehicles than Toyota, for the past eight years, and Ford is not under
indictment for trying to hide things for those eight years, as is the case
with Toyota


mike hunt

 

snip

snip

I am speculating but the reason why cars get bigger might be the
manufacturers' way to lure buyers to stay with them. You are happy with your
car but you may find you could use a little more space and use a few more
ponies. 3-4 years down the road, your car is bigger and more powerful so,
you decide that you want the same car. 3-4 more years, same thing.
In the meantime, the manufacturer builds a new model, smaller than the one
you had. The same car will eventually get bigger and more powerfull. The
wheel keeps turning.

 

IME = "In My Experience" not Opinion. Opinion begins with an "O." It
is a fact that MY fleet vehicle will be turned in at 70K miles, and it
is a fact that the only maintenance it gets is an oil change every 7K
miles and whatever extra service that I personally request.

nate

 

Ford is a funny company to hold up as an example of citizenship here Mike.

How about the long battle with California over defective throttle
modules. California courts finally forced Ford to do a recall.

http://www.yourlawyer.com/articles/read/8735

Then there is the similar situation with the Volvo division of Ford and
their electronic throttle module fiasco, also finally resulting in a
recall after years of legal pressure:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0505/06/1auto-170127.htm

Then of course you have the exploding Ford Police Interceptor problem,
the old exploding Pintos, etc. Oh yeah, and the flipping Explorer
fiasco where Ford and Firestone formed a circular firing squad to assign
blame, after denying for years that there was any problem at all.

Yes sir, Ford is a very model of doing the right thing when they
"discover a problem and are offering to fix it for free".

It also interesting that when Toyota announces recalls you declare it to
be a disaster but when Ford does so they are just being good boys and girls.

John

 

Ford

 

Where did I say I believed that in the first place? I think you are
confused (again).

I don't even know which "fuels" you are even talking about. I know
that one "fuel" is already cheaper - electricity. Not too practical
for cars (although it might work for some people), but it works pretty
well for commuter trains. I also understand that EtOH from sugar cane
is at least competitive if not actually cheaper than petroleum fuels
in Brazil.

Hydrogen is a sham. If anyone doubted that before, they must realize
that now that Bush is promoting it.

Did I say the want small underpowered cars? No, they want vehicles
that are bigger inside than an Excursion, faster than a Lamborghini,
easier to park than a Segway, as agile as a Mini, and burn fuel like a
Vespa.

Here is what I actually said:

Here is my prediction:

With high prices and short supplies of fuel (and possibly CO2
restrictions) ahead, Suburbans will become niche vehicles for people
who need to transport >6 people all the time. The engine will become
anemic, because these buyers won't care about acceleration but will
care about fuel economy. The vehicles will gradually become more
car-like because the heavy duty frame and off-road capability will be
readily sacrificed for greater fuel economy.

The SUV will evolve into stylistic treatment on a car - basically a
macho station wagon. What few "real" SUVs remain will be niche
vehicles with tiny sales numbers.

And they are doing a lot better with them than GM and Ford.

When fuel was cheap, the compromise (see above) favored size and power
over fuel economy (especially since technology was improving mechanic
al efficiency to minimize the penalty.) Now that fuel is no longer
cheap, the trend will reverse. Actually, it already has. Sales of
truck-based SUVs peaked in 2001.

Fit is the new Civic.

 

The main F150 assembly plant in St. Paul is just coming back form a
many-week furlogh, with discussions of going to just one shift instead
of two, and mgmt hinting of more furloughs later this year.

 

Ford is lucky it never sold the Pinto (or much else) in Japan. The
Japanese government takes public safety very seriously and they don't
mind making an example out of any corporation/executive who puts it at
risk.

The Toyota recalls are world-wide. World-wide, Toyota sells more cars
than Ford. Also, the Ford recall is a continuation from last year
when they recalled over six million trucks for the same problem.

 

Obviously you prefer to believe only those things you chose to believe, and
will not change, even though Ford was exonerated in all three instances.
Search the NHTSA and the Congressional Record for the facts, WBMA.

mike

 

You must have missed the part of my post that said; 'an opinion based on
your particular experience.' The facts, as I know them from serving
thousands of corporate and government fleets in six states, are quite
different. You are entitled to you own opinion, based on your personal
experience with ONE vehicle in ONE fleet, but not your own facts pertaining
to fleets in general


mike hunt

 

At least two; the last company I worked for had a similar vehicle
program. Oddly enough we're talking about two of the very largest
corporations in the entire world.

nate

 

and mighty GM!

 

Why should that be a surprise -- since Toyota sells more than most
others?

 

The US large personal truck/SUV market is going to contract by about 50%
from it's peak. That is what it will take to get back to the 20-25%
share of sales which represent the people who have a real need for
trucks and are not simply buying them because it is a fad to do so.

Fads come and go, and the every man, woman and child needs a Suburban
sized vehicle to sit in stop and go traffic with fad has run it's
course. Who is going to go to a party and brag about their new
Expedition today? Nobody. But, drive up in a tres chic Toyota Prius
and you have something to talk about.

The genius of Toyota is that they have strong contenders in every market
segment of consequence from the Prius on one end to the Land Cruiser on
the other. Why can the world's second largest auto maker field a more
competitive line-up world wide than do GM or Ford?

Hula hoops, beanie babies or Razer scooters anyone?

John

 

Yes, fads come and go but some actually are worthwhile. Remember how hot
the minivan was and how many times it took Honda and Toyota to finally
get it right. Ford and GM still can't. But in the end the minivan is a
practical vehicle and while not as popular as before they will still be
here when the other fad vehicles fade. Remember the "personal luxury
coupes" of the seventies. The only who left is the Monte Carlo (the
Grand Prix is sedan only now).

 

The minivan will be around for a long time, but it's peak volume days
are over (at least for the full size type).

Pickup trucks are usefull as well and will be around for a long time
just as they have been ever since Model T versions were once made, but
the days when people would buy them for long commutes to office jobs are
probably over as well.

I'm not saying that the large truck / SUV market is going to disappear.
I am saying that it is set to contract by about 50%.

John

 

Clearly you need to read up on how commodities markets work.