Hello Again... I'm back....

Been out of the newsgroup thing for a while, I moved from a desktop computer
to a laptop, and have difficultied getting the laptop to read news groups
when both at work (wifi) and here at home (dialup).
Anyway, I left Firestone a year and a half ago and have been working at a
Subaru dealership. I'm the "Used Car Guy" If it aint a Subaru, it's mine.
The boss is sending me to Subaru School this spring, going to make a honest
man of me. I havent done a lot of Diag lately, mostly leaks and stuff, do my
diag skills are slipping. Also noticed many of the tools that were usefull
at Firestone are setting and getting dusty. Ball joint tools and such.
The Subie is a great car to work on and I thing I will be here untill it's
time to quit. The pay per job is good, and many jobs that are difficult on
many other cars are a breeze on a subie.
I was handycapped for a while, I had no access to an auto data base untill a
week ago. The shop finally subcrribed to AllData, and I was allowed to put
it on my laptop. It's great, I now have access to most auto stuff at home
now!
If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.

Tegger, I think of you whenever I remove a tie rod end or a ball joint with
a 4 lb hammer in under 10 seconds. Someday I will have to video it for you.

Take care
Steve
Ase Master Tech.

 

Hey, welcome back! We need some actual working techs in this group. The
mechanic I usually go to is a big Subaru fan. He even races them in the
winter.

I have access to all the Honda TSB's and HSN publications, but precious
little outside that except what I can scrounge from some people I know
(and some of that seems to not be as accurate as I need it to be).
So anything you can add would be great.

If you video that balljoint thing, I'd love to see it. I could post it on
the relevant FAQ page about balljoints.

 

Have you been following the thread entitled
"'Black Box' information retention"?

What do you know about that subject?

I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but his info
was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.

 

Tegger wrote:

please don't. it's extremely bad practice and is guaranteed to f-up
when done by an amateur. especially on something older that's had a
chance to rust and seize.

encourage the use of the proper tool and safe working practice. knowing
how to remove a lug nut with a chisel doesn't mean you should actually
do it that way.

 

I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few years ago,
but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring when they send me to
the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the instructor what he knows of it in
the Subaru line.
Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if the tie
rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.

Steve

 

as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...

use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin' book.
people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with 4lb
hammers can ignore them.

 

I watch it being done every day, by 4 other Master Techs. I will look
tommorow and see what the "Proper" way and tools are, and if provided by
Subaru or the Snap-on dealer. I have never damaged a car doing this or seen
one damaged in this method.. If it don't get free in a few good wacks (or
has tons of rust on it), you may have other problems.
It is a trick of the trade, nothing more, and it works.
The one thing you learn in a shop is what techniques you can use to save
time.

Take Care, Steve

 

Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for removing ball
joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no instructions. I'll go
by the Honda Shop and ask how they do it, in the real world.
Steve

 

Wow, quick reply. Car is fine, no damage to the new bearings. The three hits
mearly jarred the tie rod end loose. I won't fail, Better not, Mom-in-law
needs her van!!!

Cheers!
Steve

 

no shit.

but have you ever stopped to think /why/ this stuff loosens when you hit
it? it's because it's being deformed, that's why.

1. with a ball joint, its factory tightness and integrity is assured
after it's pressed together. this is a precision process. that can
however be destroyed by indiscriminate use of a hammer by locally
deforming the socket, or even the ball. when disassembling a joint with
the proper tool, all pressure is applied to the suspension member and
the mounting pillar of the joint, not to the ball or the ball housing.
therefore the ball is never overloaded, cannot be inadvertently loosened
or deformed. or worse, hammered to initiate fatigue.

2. with a tie rod end, where it bolts to the rack [rack and pinion],
apart from the same issues with the ball joint as described above,
hammering so the rack receives blows brinells the rack bearing in the
housing. again, this may not be immediately apparent, but it will
shorten the life of the rack. or even crack the alloy housing.

3. metal fatigue is commonly initiated by surface damage. hammer marks
are classic for this. fatigue breakage won't happen immediately, only
when the car is a long way away so nobody will associate all the carnage
with you.

4. all this applies to every other suspension member that receives blows
in this fashion. all bearings, rolling element bearings, ball & socket
bearings, sliding journal bearings, /none/ are designed for this kind of
impact loading. sure, suspension gets big loading from riding the car
over potholes, etc. but examined with an accelerometer, /none/ of this,
thanks to the tire, is as severe as the loading inflicted by hammer
blows. wheel bearings can take hundreds of thousands of miles of road
abuse. but the impact of one single blow with a hammer can brinell them
and they'll fail in a few miles afterwards.

bottom line, there's a book with a factory procedure. that exists for
you to follow. if i caught your dumb ass hammering a customer's car to
split the ball joints "just to save time", i'd hammer your dumb ass out
of a job on the spot.

 

why would they? if they don't actually tell you to use a 4lb hammer,
why would you assume it's ok to use one???

 

My mechanic also does the 4lb hammer thing. He's done that for the last 30
years or so. He explained to me what to do, but I've never worked up the
nerve to try it.

I've never actually watched him do it though. That's why I'm interested in
StephenW's video.

 

you had a ball joint fatigue and fail didn't you? did he ever do this
to your car before that happened?

jeepers... like i say, you can use a hammer and chisel to remove lug
nuts, but that doesn't mean you should. and do any of these clowns ever
decide to be aircraft techs? i sincerely hope not.

 

My balljoint did not fail due to fatigue. It failed by seizing up due to
rust. Once it seized up solid, the post then broke off.

jim, talk to some pro's. You'll find lots of them use this method.

 

that was probably fatigue.

i used to be a pro, thanks. where i worked, you wouldn't consider using
a hammer to do this stuff unless it was on something to be discarded
afterwards.

 

Uh, the technique of removing tie rods/ball joints with a sharp blow to
the side with a sizable ball peen has been used by zillions of mechanics
for years ans is far better for the components than some of the
separator tools available.

JT

 

Right you are!

The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" application. No
stress on the actual components.

I first learned of the techinque from the family mechanic thirty-five
years ago and nothing has changed much in the way of design of joints...

JT

 

Just remember that you do not hit the actual joint... Just the adjacent
component such as a steering knuckle etc.

The release is the result from "shock" from the blow.

JT

 

I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator tool
a couple of years ago and like it. However, last month at
the junkyard, while going after a control arm and not having
the separator tool with me, I tried the "whack" with the
hammer approach. It worked great, and my sense is that I
spare wear and tear on the ball joint boot, for one thing.

The (highly regarded and thoughtful) auto suspension course
instructor I had a few years ago also approved of this
technique.

Good luck in your new Subaru job, StephenW. Always
interesting to hear about techs' careers. Though I do worry
about what you folks do to preserve your physical health...
take good care; safety first. (I ain't perfect at it but I
do constantly try to think, "Is there a safer way and/or a
way that will spare my back; elbow tendons; knees; etc.?")

 

Exactly.

Them thar' boots are hard to replace so one should avoid splitting 'em.

He's probably "old" school.

JT

(Older than dirt...)