Hello Again... I'm back....

and zillions of "mechanics" rip off their customers with unnecessary
maintenance like brake pad replacement after only 15k miles, replaced
automatic transmissions when all it needs is a fluid change or a band
adjusting, not done timing belt changes, etc. the list is endless.
just because one incompetent trains another to do the same as them,
doesn't mean they're not incompetent.

bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is
incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it.

 

i wouldn't call a pickle fork a "joint separator" - it's a weapon of
last resort and guaranteed to wreck boots.

 

You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling.

JT

 

That I'll agree with but OTOH, if the part is to be discarded, it
doesn't make any difference.

JT

 

if the part is to be discarded, go ahead and use a hammer!

 

did you read my explanatory post?

 

Yes I did but it is you who missed the basic point.

Simply put, removing tie rods/ball joints by applying a sharp blow to
the side of the steering knuckle etc. is a long time practice. So much
so it is legend in the trade. The practice does not damage any components.

If one were to purchase all the "special" tools recommended by
manufacturers/dealers to do simple jobs, (tie rod design hasn't changed
much in fifty years), the mechanics profit margin would be severely
impacted.

There's the "book" method and there's the smart method.

I prefer to work "smart."

JT

 

dude, i'm sure you're sincere in that belief, and i respect that, but
unfortunately that statement is simply not correct. there is tangible
damage from this practice, most of which may not be immediately
apparent, but it is nevertheless still there.

to be fair, it may not have been much of an issue with detroit garbage
that didn't last very long anyway and hammering damage was
indistinguishable from poor quality, but in this day and age,
particularly with modern vehicles and the more frequent use of aluminum
suspension components, it's absolutely not acceptable to teach people
something that is wrong.

so would sticking to the manufacturer service schedule!

no, there's the book method and the book method. if it's not in the
book don't do it. [1]

except that it's not. and if hammering damage initiates fatigue, it can
be positively lethal.

1. there's a famous case in aircraft accident investigation where
engine separation occurred because the techs who were replacing an
engine didn't do it right. the "book" method was to use a special hoist
that lifted the engine exactly into position so that that the mounting
bolts could all be fitted at once. but these guys were "smart" and they
didn't "need" to buy that expensive hoist. so they used a forklift, got
the engine positioned "about right", rammed in a couple of bolts, then
left the engine to hang until they could re-shift and bring the other
bolts into alignment. trouble was, these bolts are designed to fail on
marginal overload and let the engine drop rather than damage the
aircraft. being left to hang, while nothing was obviously damaged,
initiated the failure process, so some while later, this engine
separated on takeoff nearly causing a crash of a fully loaded, fully
fueled plane. and these techs were guys with years of experience and
who "knew what they were doing"!!!

bottom line, don't ignore what's in the book. it may not spell out all
the detail, but if it says to use a separator on a ball joint, and even
gives details of that tool, there's a reason! and no, it's not to rip
off the poor repair franchise that get to print money charging you $600
for a $34 timing belt replacement.

 

I believe you are talking about an American Airlines 747 that lost its
engine. Even worse the airlines did a cursory inspection and declared all
other 747's safe. Thankfully a couple of mechanics weren't satisfied and
took some engines off the planes and found more bolts ready to fail which
forced all airlines to recheck the bolts carefully and avoiding disaster in
the air.

 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:

"Defying history" - wow!

 

This discussion is about automobiles many of which are driven by morons.

I am well aware of aviation standards vs. vehicle repair standards as I
spent a considerable part of my live as an aerospace process engineer.

There is absolutely no comparison to auto repairs and aviation
maintennace. NONE!

....unless you intend to fly your Honda...

JT

 

No, he was referring to an American Airlines DC-10 that lost an engine
during rotation in Chicago.

While the engine was improperly installed, the loss of the aircraft and
all aboard was due to a woefully hydraulic back up system (by design) in
the DC-10. Another incident was Soux City but in that case, some
survided a crash that should have been a routine landing again by total
loss of hydraulics even though only one engine was involved. A very
similar incident with a L-1011 resulted in a safe landing.

In fact, the DC-10 may have been the worst design commercial aircraft of
all time as other design deficiencies cause large loss of life from the
effects of sudden depressurerization etc.

OTOH, the L-1011 had a spotless LOL record from a manufacturing/design
standpoint.

 

Ok, OK, Ok... Make that, "Long established custom."

JT

 

agreed, aviation is /way/ more anal. but, as vehicle standard improve,
there is less and less room for the abysmal practices that came from
detroit's low standards of 50 years ago. and if you've worked on
commercial vehicles, standards are way higher than your average frod jockey.

i've been known to get airborne on occasion...

 

i can't recall the a/c we studied, [not relevant to the materials
analysis] so i googled, and this appears to be a relatively common
problem across many different a/c types. scary.

the point is that damage is not readily apparent. in that respect, cars
are no different to any other machine where the service tech's don't
have the full background on every single aspect of design and operation.
and how could they? who wants to do degrees and research just to swap
out a driveshaft? but the techs /do/ need to read [and follow] the
service manual, and that /was/ written by the people that know.

 

The mother of necessity....

You seem to be more concerned with my health than I am. I just rolled over
45 years of age and am doing great. I often get mistaken for being in my
30's and I've got 20 years in the AF under my belt. (12 years aircraft mech,
6 years as a building supervisor) A flightline has always seemed more
dangerous thab a auto shop; the tires on a KC-135 weigh a lot more!
I have never smoked and drink lightly. I have some hearing loss and my eyes
are finally giving me fits- (thinking about lasik)
I push myself to keep doing the difficult things to keep me limber. Dad and
I like to hike 3 miles into our favorite lake with 60 lb backpacks. He's 71.
When doing alignments you must do them with the rack leveled or "on its
feet/stands" It's more difficult to do because you have to "duck walk" under
the car and now the display screen is difficult to see, especially in the
rear of the car. For the last 5 years I have consistently done it
"correctly" for it's the best alignment and I didn't want to do it the lazy
way then someday my body cant crouch down to do it.
I keep hitting my head on things, and it's very tough- no stitches yet.....
Other than that. I don't see it as being that dangerous in a shop; lifting
things, Cuts and smashed body parts would be my biggest concerns.
Working in (this) a dealership is great, much better than Firestone. 8-5
with a hour lunch beats 8-6 with no breaks. Even the boss meets us up in the
breakroom for cards at lunch (rummy) I work one weekend a month vs. every
weekend. A very casual shop.
Now about my off work time. I finally had to miss some work last month. A
skillsaw and I had a mishap; it bit my upper thigh. 4 1/2 inches long and
just touched the muscle. 16 stitches on the outside. 2 hours later I walked
out of the ER, and could have been back to work 2 days later; but I took a
week off.

Anyway, I'm more dangerous off work than on.

Steve

 

I read about the "big hammer" approach here at the
newsgroup, and also recalled it from my automotive
suspension course, and went for it.

snip for brevity

Ouch. Good for you for "'fessing up." (Not that you were
hesitating.) I think it makes us safer. I broke my arm
throwing a batting practice this past spring, using an
unsafe format. I was lucky I was not killed and am grateful
it was not a bad break. No more pitching for me.

Kills me that some harp on safety and then go brag about
driving 90 mph down the highway. Not you; others in this
discussion.

I am concerned about America's health in general, and any
blue collar worker's health in particular. The nature of the
work does, statistically speaking, tend to cost them much
more health-wise than a white collar job.

Glad to hear your health is good and you're careful, though.

 

Regardless of what other people on this newsgroup have said, I would
still very much enjoy seeing a video of this hammer technique in action.
I believe that I tried it in the past without result, and would
appreciate seeing how it is really done.

StephenW, you sound like an interesting person! And you have endured
criticism well.

dan

 

It's real simple... Just a sharp blow (or two) on the adjacent forging
containing the joint.

JT