Honda "Drive by Wire" question... what if the power goes out?

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Don said:

Not that 6 bucks is all that big a price for a condenser to begin
with... (Or was that your whole point? I haven't been following this
thread closely since finding out that "drive-by-wire" actually means
"throttle-by-wire" - A rather different beast than the subject line
implied.)

I'm sure one can, as long as one defines "a lot" as somewhere in the 2-3
dollar range. It might be a multi-piece unit, and it will have two
leads, rather than being the usual "single can with a wire hanging out"
style, but when you get right down to it, a capacitor of the right value
is a capacitor of the right value, regardless of form-factor or
common-use name.

Given the value (mF/pF & voltage rating - prolly find it easily in the
service manual - You *DO* have the service manual for your vehicle,
right?) of the condenser on your Honda, you've got all the information
you need to get one or more - depends on whether the target value is a
standard size or not - capacitors that will replace it just fine, even
though they might look a bit "odd" for an automotive application.
They'll be functional, though, and that's what I'd be caring about. I'd
expect that rat-shack would have them for around 2-3 bucks. Sure, the
"real" one is easier to wire into the system, and might be "prettier" to
a purist's eye, but the rat-shack one will work just the same once you
get it in place, which would be my main concern if I was needing to be
pinching pennies hard enough to go to the effort.

Going back to the "drive/throttle-by-wire" concept for a bit...

I could cope with throttle-by-wire - if, AND ONLY IF, it used a failsafe
of "total driver control of the throttle", and when in operation, it
confined its "modification" of my input to (brace yourself for the
run-on-quotated-phrase from hell ) "OK, you just stomped it to the
floor - That's fine, but since we're only turning "X" revs and I see
we're in "Y"th gear, I can calculate that opening the throttle all the
way will just dump "Z" amount of gas out the tailpipe unburned as we rev
up to speed, so what I'll do is I'll actually only open the throttle "T"
amount, which is optimal to increase "R" from the current value for <set
of current operating conditions> without pouring that gas out the
tailpipe, and I'll continuously recalculate and apply that "T" value to
the throttle based on a new <set of current operating conditions>
sampled every "M" milliseconds until either the throttle is fully open,
or you let up on the pedal to a point at or below the current throttle
position, whichever comes first"

<INHALE!>

<Whew!>

Any application of drive-by-wire that involves steering or braking is
something I don't want any part of. As I said previously, I demand
total, godlike control of my vehicle when I'm at the controls - Aside
from the case stated above, I don't need or want a computer
second-guessing my inputs - If my input says "put it on the locks to the
left", I want the wheels turned to the locks on the left. I don't CARE
if you think that's unsafe, Mr. Computer - Just MAKE IT HAPPEN. Your
calculations may very well show that doing so will send the car into an
out-of-control skid to the left. That's fine. Maybe that's *EXACTLY*
what I'm counting on in order to avoid running over that kid that just
jumped out in front of me. Ditto ABS - Mr. Computer says "You're braking
too hard! You're gonna skid! Here, lemme just pump that real fast for
you so you don't break traction." What if I'm *TRYING* to break traction
for some reason that your little electronic pea-brain just plain isn't
equipped to comprehend, let alone react to? What if that reason involves
the difference between whether I break traction and spin out to come to
a stop just before going over the 400 foot drop, or knowing that I
braked smoothly and without loss of traction until a point about 30 feet
beyond the edge of the dropoff? Uh-uh... when it comes to steering and
braking, just DO WHAT I SAID AND DO IT NOW!

As someone else said, though, steering has been refined over the years,
as have braking systems, so that both are highly reliable (given proper
service, of course) and both responsive to user input in all but
catastrophic failure situations, and give the operator good-to-excellent
feedback when power-assisted. The considerations that make "fly-by-wire"
a must-have (or even "just desirable") for some aircraft don't exist in
cars, and no "drive-by-wire" control is needed unless one wishes to
fully automate the driving (Thinking in terms of the "Autodrive" feature
in the cars of the future from "Demolition Man"), which is something
that I personally think is still a good many years beyond the reach of
current technology and AI methods.

Or, more tersely: "It ain't broke. Why are we trying to fix it?"
Click to expand...

So why did humans move out of caves?

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

SoCalMike said:

youre more likely to be hit by lightning
Click to expand...

Thanks - the preceding post sounds like someone who argues against seat
belts because he heard that someone was trapped in a vehicle instead of
being "thrown clear", ignoring the 99.99999% of the time when being
belted is better.

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

SoCalMike said:

youre more likely to be hit by lightning
Click to expand...

Thanks - the preceding post sounds like someone who argues against seat
belts because he heard that someone was trapped in a vehicle instead of
being "thrown clear", ignoring the 99.99999% of the time when being
belted is better.

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Gordon said:

And you can just cut the death belts with scissors and strip the
plastic padding of death from the dash board. The lethally collapsing
steering wheel is harder to disable, but the original level of safety
can be restored by bracing a 4X4 timber against the frame pointed at
your head. Don't forget to remove the side impact death beams from
the doors and replace the death glass windshield with plate glass from
the local window repair company.
Click to expand...

Now you're talking!

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Gordon said:

And you can just cut the death belts with scissors and strip the
plastic padding of death from the dash board. The lethally collapsing
steering wheel is harder to disable, but the original level of safety
can be restored by bracing a 4X4 timber against the frame pointed at
your head. Don't forget to remove the side impact death beams from
the doors and replace the death glass windshield with plate glass from
the local window repair company.
Click to expand...

Now you're talking!

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Steve said:

Two points to make: 1) I always watch out for Mercedes anyway, because I
presume they're driven by twits and I haven't forgiven Daimler for
screwing up Chrysler,
Click to expand...

ROTFLMAO - thanks for the comic relief.

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Steve said:

Two points to make: 1) I always watch out for Mercedes anyway, because I
presume they're driven by twits and I haven't forgiven Daimler for
screwing up Chrysler,
Click to expand...

ROTFLMAO - thanks for the comic relief.

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

There was a story in the news in the last few days. Mercedes was doing a
demo of their braking control systems. Three Mercedes drove into the
lecture hall, and they were each supposed to be brought to a stop entirely
by the collision avoidance system.

Three smashes later, they were, indeed, all stopped.
The Mercedes story had something to do with an adjacent metal wall and
echoes.

This wasn't the brake by wire that failed, per se, but amusing anyway.
Click to expand...

Love it, much like the Microsoft demo conducted personally by Bill Gates
during which the computers failed. I thin some guy named Murphy was
involved.

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

There was a story in the news in the last few days. Mercedes was doing a
demo of their braking control systems. Three Mercedes drove into the
lecture hall, and they were each supposed to be brought to a stop entirely
by the collision avoidance system.

Three smashes later, they were, indeed, all stopped.
The Mercedes story had something to do with an adjacent metal wall and
echoes.

This wasn't the brake by wire that failed, per se, but amusing anyway.
Click to expand...

Love it, much like the Microsoft demo conducted personally by Bill Gates
during which the computers failed. I thin some guy named Murphy was
involved.

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Pete said:

With the electronic throttle control servo failing in the WOT position
and ABS second guessing your braking, you would likely have gone right
through the garage, both the front door and the back wall.
Click to expand...

Do you have a cite for this assertion?

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Pete said:

With the electronic throttle control servo failing in the WOT position
and ABS second guessing your braking, you would likely have gone right
through the garage, both the front door and the back wall.
Click to expand...

Do you have a cite for this assertion?

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

the said:

the fly wrote:

The statement about "pointless engineering masturbation" is
still applicable.
Click to expand...

ok, so you /are/ a troll - i rated you as only 99% before [allowing for
a small margin of ignorance]. now we know your troll coefficient = 1.0.

clearly you have /no/ idea of the much superior reliability stats of efi
compared to conventional fuel management/delivery. similarly,
electronic ignition knocks conventional ignition out of the park. and
now you're bleating about a small incremental change that allows the
elimination of a significant engine management hurdle, one that allows
significant perfomance benefits, control benefits /and/ reliability
benefits? [rhetorical] clearly not as you're trolling from a position
of utter ignorance.
Click to expand...

"Clearly" you have not read or understood what I wrote.
I have no objection to the electronic engine-management
systems in use. I agree that they are far superior to the mechanical
systems used in the past. But we weren't discussing electronic engine
management. Pay attention.
What I won't agree to is the use of electrical devices in
place of mechanical operators, when there is no advantage, and there
is a significant hazard involved. Devices fail, whether mechanical or
electronic. And only the "utterly ignorant" would advocate their use
with no backup in place.
As to my being ignorant: I'll be the first to admit that I
don't know everything there is to know. But I have about forty years'
experience working in the industry, with vehicles and industrial
engines. And a baccalaureate degree in automotive technology. And
some common sense gained in real-world experience.
Get the hell off your high-horse.
Click to expand...

What sort of person gives drugs to his horse? Shocking!

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

the said:

the fly wrote:

The statement about "pointless engineering masturbation" is
still applicable.
Click to expand...

ok, so you /are/ a troll - i rated you as only 99% before [allowing for
a small margin of ignorance]. now we know your troll coefficient = 1.0.

clearly you have /no/ idea of the much superior reliability stats of efi
compared to conventional fuel management/delivery. similarly,
electronic ignition knocks conventional ignition out of the park. and
now you're bleating about a small incremental change that allows the
elimination of a significant engine management hurdle, one that allows
significant perfomance benefits, control benefits /and/ reliability
benefits? [rhetorical] clearly not as you're trolling from a position
of utter ignorance.
Click to expand...

"Clearly" you have not read or understood what I wrote.
I have no objection to the electronic engine-management
systems in use. I agree that they are far superior to the mechanical
systems used in the past. But we weren't discussing electronic engine
management. Pay attention.
What I won't agree to is the use of electrical devices in
place of mechanical operators, when there is no advantage, and there
is a significant hazard involved. Devices fail, whether mechanical or
electronic. And only the "utterly ignorant" would advocate their use
with no backup in place.
As to my being ignorant: I'll be the first to admit that I
don't know everything there is to know. But I have about forty years'
experience working in the industry, with vehicles and industrial
engines. And a baccalaureate degree in automotive technology. And
some common sense gained in real-world experience.
Get the hell off your high-horse.
Click to expand...

What sort of person gives drugs to his horse? Shocking!

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Few use manual transmissions now, and even if they did, the 'by wire'
technology
would not change a thing.

Even with diesels, 'by wire' actuation does nothing unique.

IF automated highways ever became a reality, then a totally electronic
system
might be the way to go...collision avoidance, route selection, traffic flow
optimization,
police interception, etc...all might be controlled by computer...

I think I will stay home if that ever happens...
Click to expand...

Just think, though, no more speeding tickets.

Sparky Spartacus · Nov 25, 2005

Few use manual transmissions now, and even if they did, the 'by wire'
technology
would not change a thing.

Even with diesels, 'by wire' actuation does nothing unique.

IF automated highways ever became a reality, then a totally electronic
system
might be the way to go...collision avoidance, route selection, traffic flow
optimization,
police interception, etc...all might be controlled by computer...

I think I will stay home if that ever happens...
Click to expand...

Just think, though, no more speeding tickets.

Don Bruder · Nov 25, 2005

Or, more tersely: "It ain't broke. Why are we trying to fix it?"
Click to expand...

So why did humans move out of caves?[/QUOTE]

How many layers of gold leaf are you planning on putting on that turd?

In other words, Sparky, take your specious "If it isn't the newest,
bestest, fastest, it must be garbage", and the implied "If you aren't
using the newest/fastest/bestest, you're too stupid to move out of a
cave" crap and stick it where the sun don't shine. Something being
*ABLE* to be improved doesn't imply a need, or even a desirability, for
the improvement to happen - Only the possibility of doing so. Also
phrased as "just because it's the hot new thing doesn't mean it's any
good." - Ever heard of Thalidomide? And the results of using it?

Things as they stand in automotive technology, are quite functional now.
Further development, while being *POSSIBLE*, is neither required, nor in
some cases, desirable, for many currently in-use automotive systems.

An old programmer's line: "A program is never *DONE*, but you do have to
ship it sooner or later."

In other words, there's the choice between continuing to hang bells and
whistles (needed or not) off the program, and actually getting it to the
customer - *ANY* program can be tweaked and tuned and fiddled with until
doomsday, if desired. But somewhere, somebody has to step in and say
"Hey! We've gotta ship this thing if we wanna eat!"

Cars have reached that point. Particularly the control systems. The next
major change in vehicle systems won't come until the day that we can
make *100 PERCENT* reliable, sentient machines that can respond to a
situation as well as or better than a human *EVERY SINGLE TIME*. At
which point, cars will be ready to go to "full auto drive". Until the
"Eureka Moment" that shows us how to make things absolutely infallible
happens, I'll continue to be a luddite and insist on purely
mechanical/hydraulic control of my brakes and steering, *WITHOUT* any
input from a computer, thanks.

Don Bruder · Nov 25, 2005

Or, more tersely: "It ain't broke. Why are we trying to fix it?"
Click to expand...

So why did humans move out of caves?[/QUOTE]

How many layers of gold leaf are you planning on putting on that turd?

In other words, Sparky, take your specious "If it isn't the newest,
bestest, fastest, it must be garbage", and the implied "If you aren't
using the newest/fastest/bestest, you're too stupid to move out of a
cave" crap and stick it where the sun don't shine. Something being
*ABLE* to be improved doesn't imply a need, or even a desirability, for
the improvement to happen - Only the possibility of doing so. Also
phrased as "just because it's the hot new thing doesn't mean it's any
good." - Ever heard of Thalidomide? And the results of using it?

Things as they stand in automotive technology, are quite functional now.
Further development, while being *POSSIBLE*, is neither required, nor in
some cases, desirable, for many currently in-use automotive systems.

An old programmer's line: "A program is never *DONE*, but you do have to
ship it sooner or later."

In other words, there's the choice between continuing to hang bells and
whistles (needed or not) off the program, and actually getting it to the
customer - *ANY* program can be tweaked and tuned and fiddled with until
doomsday, if desired. But somewhere, somebody has to step in and say
"Hey! We've gotta ship this thing if we wanna eat!"

Cars have reached that point. Particularly the control systems. The next
major change in vehicle systems won't come until the day that we can
make *100 PERCENT* reliable, sentient machines that can respond to a
situation as well as or better than a human *EVERY SINGLE TIME*. At
which point, cars will be ready to go to "full auto drive". Until the
"Eureka Moment" that shows us how to make things absolutely infallible
happens, I'll continue to be a luddite and insist on purely
mechanical/hydraulic control of my brakes and steering, *WITHOUT* any
input from a computer, thanks.

Don Bruder · Nov 25, 2005

Sparky Spartacus said:

Just think, though, no more speeding tickets.
Click to expand...

OK, Sparky... You've been itching for it, so here it is - *MY*
application of "ain't technology wonderful?!?":

<PLONK>

(It's called a killfile - It's a sort of "storage area" for morons and
fools who have nothing useful to say, but insist on running their
clueless mouths anyhow - Say "buh-bye", Sparky... You no longer exist in
my world. Which is a great improvement over 5 minutes ago.)

Don Bruder · Nov 25, 2005

Sparky Spartacus said:

Just think, though, no more speeding tickets.
Click to expand...

OK, Sparky... You've been itching for it, so here it is - *MY*
application of "ain't technology wonderful?!?":

<PLONK>

(It's called a killfile - It's a sort of "storage area" for morons and
fools who have nothing useful to say, but insist on running their
clueless mouths anyhow - Say "buh-bye", Sparky... You no longer exist in
my world. Which is a great improvement over 5 minutes ago.)

jim beam · Nov 25, 2005

Doug said:

Well, they are applied - they don't actually "lock". I'd expected they would,
but on the vehicles I've tried it on, it just comes to a relatively controlled
stop, without skidding. Yet those same vehicles will skid (lock) using the
service brake. My yard service manager says this is by design.
Click to expand...

locking is not by design. the ability to apply it hard enough so that
it /can/ be locked /is/ by design. big difference. a locked brake does
no one any good.

Honda "Drive by Wire" question... what if the power goes out?

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