Horsepower cuts embarass Asians

<snip>

Jim, I stand by what I said.

The power delivered to the road is a multiple of speed and force.

So if one wheel has twice as much grip as the other, twice as much power
will go through it. (assuming they are both traction limited!)

Yes, you will waste some - which is why the tyre smokes when you try
really hard - but the *delivered* power will be proportional to the
traction.

Another rider - you may be delivering the power to the gravel, not the road!

Andy

 

<snip>

Jim, I stand by what I said.

The power delivered to the road is a multiple of speed and force.

So if one wheel has twice as much grip as the other, twice as much power
will go through it. (assuming they are both traction limited!)

Yes, you will waste some - which is why the tyre smokes when you try
really hard - but the *delivered* power will be proportional to the
traction.

Another rider - you may be delivering the power to the gravel, not the road!

Andy

 

what an utterly stupid comment. bmw do many things, including seal
their transmissions so the fluid cannot be changed, design their crumple
zones so "early" deformation occurs in parts of the shell that render
the vehicle irreparable, etc. but because they label themselves with a
catchy advertising tag-line, whatever they do /has/ to be good?
complete carp.

 

what an utterly stupid comment. bmw do many things, including seal
their transmissions so the fluid cannot be changed, design their crumple
zones so "early" deformation occurs in parts of the shell that render
the vehicle irreparable, etc. but because they label themselves with a
catchy advertising tag-line, whatever they do /has/ to be good?
complete carp.

 

no, you're just back-tracking.

ok, stop right there. camber doesn't change [much] with struts, but
with wishbones, it can change substantially. check your facts before
making garbage like that up. it's not like you don't have an internet
connection and access to millions of web articles on such stuff.

rubbish. caster is [one way] to create trail. there's no hard rule
differentiating struts and wishbones.

that's not just caster guy, that's camber, caster and trail.

eh? you have no idea what you're talking about. larger trail provides
more self-centering which is good on a freeway, but makes it /harder/ to
turn the steering wheel - it doesn't make it less responsive. if
anything, the opposite.

no fooling.

no, re-read what i wrote. i said struts are a successful design for
off-road uses because their shortcomings are less important than they
are on-road.

i'm definitely not on the same page as you.

but right now, i don't care. i'm going away for a few days, so knock
yourself out with any face-saving response you like. or maybe you can
use the time to go to the library and do some homework.

 

no, you're just back-tracking.

ok, stop right there. camber doesn't change [much] with struts, but
with wishbones, it can change substantially. check your facts before
making garbage like that up. it's not like you don't have an internet
connection and access to millions of web articles on such stuff.

rubbish. caster is [one way] to create trail. there's no hard rule
differentiating struts and wishbones.

that's not just caster guy, that's camber, caster and trail.

eh? you have no idea what you're talking about. larger trail provides
more self-centering which is good on a freeway, but makes it /harder/ to
turn the steering wheel - it doesn't make it less responsive. if
anything, the opposite.

no fooling.

no, re-read what i wrote. i said struts are a successful design for
off-road uses because their shortcomings are less important than they
are on-road.

i'm definitely not on the same page as you.

but right now, i don't care. i'm going away for a few days, so knock
yourself out with any face-saving response you like. or maybe you can
use the time to go to the library and do some homework.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. I stand by what I said, I assume you stand
by what you said. Have a great trip!

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. I stand by what I said, I assume you stand
by what you said. Have a great trip!

 

<Retch>

Accords used to use them. Don't any more. I'd like to see someone
accuse Honda of being behind the times.

Maybe. But they distribute the space useage differently.

Advantageous for transverse engines. Possibly less advantageous
without that and with a V type engine. Depends.

If you want to maximize trunk space with front wheel drive you use a
beam axle and leaf springs. So there! And I recall the Renault
Alliance has a very roomy trunk for the size of the car... IRS, too...
transverse torsion bars.

BMWs have used struts for a long time. Its nothing recent.

They're good enough for the customers who believe its the ulitmate
driving machine. Not quite the same.

 

<Retch>

Accords used to use them. Don't any more. I'd like to see someone
accuse Honda of being behind the times.

Maybe. But they distribute the space useage differently.

Advantageous for transverse engines. Possibly less advantageous
without that and with a V type engine. Depends.

If you want to maximize trunk space with front wheel drive you use a
beam axle and leaf springs. So there! And I recall the Renault
Alliance has a very roomy trunk for the size of the car... IRS, too...
transverse torsion bars.

BMWs have used struts for a long time. Its nothing recent.

They're good enough for the customers who believe its the ulitmate
driving machine. Not quite the same.

 

jim beam wrote:

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. BMW has quite reputation, which I
agree with, for making a driver's car, so the slogan fits. I don't buy
into marketing. The fact that they have used a strut to make high
performance driver's car says alot about what can be done with a strut.
Wishbones are better, but struts have closed the gap, asswipe.

CD

 

jim beam wrote:

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. BMW has quite reputation, which I
agree with, for making a driver's car, so the slogan fits. I don't buy
into marketing. The fact that they have used a strut to make high
performance driver's car says alot about what can be done with a strut.
Wishbones are better, but struts have closed the gap, asswipe.

CD

 

Honda isn't behind the times. Honda beleives in making the best handling
FWD car, so they went for the wishbones. The Acura TL is acknowledged as
the best handling FWD sedan out there. Compared to its pseudo arch
enemy, the Nissan Maxima, the Maxima is a much roomier car, about the
same power, and handles not as well as the TL. Maxima uses struts and
Honda uses wishbones.

In the examples above, both have V6 engines. The wishbone car is not as
roomy as the strut car.

There are always exceptions, and the beam axle, the way Nissan did with
the 95-03 Maxima or Infinit G20 was not such a bad thing. I actually
like it. Fact is, when you compare the strut to the ideal, the wishbone,
the strut is catching up, and because of all strut's other advantages,
it will take over.

BMWs, especailly cars like the M3 and M5, have long been recognized as
extremly high performance driving machines. People buy BMWs for that
reason, even if probably some 90% wont' even drive them for the driving
machine that it is. The fact this BMWs are recognized by real drivers as
driver's cars, not those customers who have to keep up with the Jones's.
That says alot about how they build their cars: the engines and
suspensions being paramount components. BMW has kept the spirit of the
driving machine whilst using a strut. I find that impressive about what
can be done with a strut.

CD

 

Honda isn't behind the times. Honda beleives in making the best handling
FWD car, so they went for the wishbones. The Acura TL is acknowledged as
the best handling FWD sedan out there. Compared to its pseudo arch
enemy, the Nissan Maxima, the Maxima is a much roomier car, about the
same power, and handles not as well as the TL. Maxima uses struts and
Honda uses wishbones.

In the examples above, both have V6 engines. The wishbone car is not as
roomy as the strut car.

There are always exceptions, and the beam axle, the way Nissan did with
the 95-03 Maxima or Infinit G20 was not such a bad thing. I actually
like it. Fact is, when you compare the strut to the ideal, the wishbone,
the strut is catching up, and because of all strut's other advantages,
it will take over.

BMWs, especailly cars like the M3 and M5, have long been recognized as
extremly high performance driving machines. People buy BMWs for that
reason, even if probably some 90% wont' even drive them for the driving
machine that it is. The fact this BMWs are recognized by real drivers as
driver's cars, not those customers who have to keep up with the Jones's.
That says alot about how they build their cars: the engines and
suspensions being paramount components. BMW has kept the spirit of the
driving machine whilst using a strut. I find that impressive about what
can be done with a strut.

CD

 

I think I said that.

Note above "without that" (transverse engine).

I see no relationship between interior roominess and the type of front
suspension within the types discussed except pure coincidence.

The lateral link unavoidably encroaches on potential trunk room. Or,
in this case, rather displaced the fuel tank into what could have been
trunk space.

Just can't admit the way the way GM, Ford, and Chrysler did it for
decades was better, eh?

Think of how good they could be with a proper suspension!
(Considering BMW's history of struts and semi-trailing arms not to be
features that come anywhere near matching their pompous advertising
slogan.)

 

I think I said that.

Note above "without that" (transverse engine).

I see no relationship between interior roominess and the type of front
suspension within the types discussed except pure coincidence.

The lateral link unavoidably encroaches on potential trunk room. Or,
in this case, rather displaced the fuel tank into what could have been
trunk space.

Just can't admit the way the way GM, Ford, and Chrysler did it for
decades was better, eh?

Think of how good they could be with a proper suspension!
(Considering BMW's history of struts and semi-trailing arms not to be
features that come anywhere near matching their pompous advertising
slogan.)

 

but you keep paraphrasing their tag line! if you think that's not
buying into their marketing, you need a reality adjustment.

struts make for comfy cars that get driven on freeways. like bmw. if
you think bmw make a "high performance driver's car", you need to drive
a few more different types of cars because they're just like mercedes,
they're way behind porsche, blah blah blah. you could also get your ass
on down to a nice twisty track some time and see who wins. but that
takes more effort than shooting off on a news group. doesn't it.

 

but you keep paraphrasing their tag line! if you think that's not
buying into their marketing, you need a reality adjustment.

struts make for comfy cars that get driven on freeways. like bmw. if
you think bmw make a "high performance driver's car", you need to drive
a few more different types of cars because they're just like mercedes,
they're way behind porsche, blah blah blah. you could also get your ass
on down to a nice twisty track some time and see who wins. but that
takes more effort than shooting off on a news group. doesn't it.

 

I've been on the track, bud. No question that Porsche makes great cars,
but you have to consider cost. The 911 costs more than BMWs top of the
line V10 M5. If BMW wanted to procduce a coupe that costs 100 grand,
I'm sure they'd make it drive as well if not better than the Porsche.
Ceramic disc brakes are incredible technology that you only find in a
Porshce, and that option ALONE adds 8 grand to the cost. Great stuff,
but fantastically pricey.

I'm sure one day we'll see truts in a Porsche, like the more
economically price cayman series.

CD

 

I've been on the track, bud. No question that Porsche makes great cars,
but you have to consider cost. The 911 costs more than BMWs top of the
line V10 M5. If BMW wanted to procduce a coupe that costs 100 grand,
I'm sure they'd make it drive as well if not better than the Porsche.
Ceramic disc brakes are incredible technology that you only find in a
Porshce, and that option ALONE adds 8 grand to the cost. Great stuff,
but fantastically pricey.

I'm sure one day we'll see truts in a Porsche, like the more
economically price cayman series.

CD