Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda

Excerpts from
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_46/b3959057.htm


While the Toyota Prius sells in eight days, the Honda Accord hybrid
takes some two months to exit the lot. The Honda Civic hybrid is no
Prius either - it takes 36 days to move.

Clearly, the Prius's conspicuous display of uber-greenness is key to
its success. But it also features a radically new driving experience.
It's quite a thrill to hit the accelerator and slip along in near
silence.

Not so for Honda hybrids. Because the gasoline engine is working most
of the time - getting an electrical boost during acceleration - it
drives much like a regular car. Honda says its technology is fuel
efficient and cheaper, but that may not be enough to wow drivers.



***************************************************

Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing.

....Robert Benchley

 

: Honda says its technology is fuel
: efficient and cheaper, but that may not be enough to wow drivers.

Honda missed the point.

Their hybrid just too ugly - and the blame falls partly on that funky
looking, fender-covered thing they tried to peddle (the Insight??).

Mack

 

That may be true for the Insight, but the Civic and Accord Hybrids look just
like regular Accords and Civics.

Persoanlly, I think the Toyota system is superior, although I remain
unconvinced that I really care that much about hybrids in general. However,
I think the size of the Prius, and the very positive press are major factors
contributing to it sales sucess. Also the distinctive, if unual styling
lets the world know that the driver really cares about the environment. The
enviromentalist driving a Civic Hybrid might not get noticed....

Insight (CVT) - 57 City / 56 Hwy / 56 combined
Insight (manual) - 60 City / 66 Hwy / 63 combined
Civic Hybrid - 49 City / 51 Hwy / 50 combined
Prius - 60 City / 51 Highway / 55 combined
Accord Hybrid (2005) - 29 City / 37 Hwy / 32 combined
Ford Escape (FWD) - 36 City / 31 Hwy / 33 combined
Toyota Highlander Hybrid (FWD) - 33 City / 28 Hwy / 30 combined
Toyota Camry (4 cylinder, 5 sp manual) - 24 City / 34 Hwy / 28 combined

Ed

 

Perhaps they don't want to stand out as not being a very astute buyer who
fell for the hybrid hype?


mike hunt

 

I suppose the reason is the Civic buyer can get a better perspective on the
premium price one must pay to buy a hybrid when looking at the came car with
the different power plants. That premium will buy nearly ALL of the fuel
for a conventional powered Civic. In the case of the Prius most buyers do
not think to compare it to the Corolla for size, price, and fuel mileage.
To say nothing of the fact dealers never mention the huge battery
replacement cost somewhere down the line.

mike hunt

 

Thank you for the exerpts, Steve.

A reason why my wife & I opted for the Prius is that it is such a
*usable* car. The premium MSRP buys you an intelligently designed
transportation system, not just an ordinary car with a modified
propulsion package.

All the hybrids have been pared down in various weight-saving ways, but
sometimes I have to wonder at the decisions. The hybrid Accord, e.g.,
has no spare tire. In its place you get a can of puncture-sealer to
spray in through the valve stem. Fine if your tire picked up a nail,
uselss if it hit road debris; fine if you're in a metropolitan area,
infuriating if the nearest help is the gas station you passed a long
time ago.

There are good ways to save weight. It's instructive to test a hybrid's
body panels with a magnet.

Brent.

 

The Accord hybrid is almost as bad of an idea as the 8 cylinder powered
VW Passat was (not quite that bad though). Pushing an Accord into
Acura TSX pricing levels really makes no sense.

Now Diesel powered Accords and Civics getting better than hybrid fuel
economy in the real world and selling for no more that a $999 premium
over the gasoline engine car ... that would be a great idea!

John

 

Not if you live in NY or CA though!

 

Supposedly the low-sulfer fuels will be rolled out in 2006 which should
solve the emissions regulations problems for diesels. Even so, there
are a whole lot of vehicles sold in the other 48 states!

John

 

When we were shopping for a new car three years ago, we only looked at
hybrids. There were four Prius on the lot, and no Civic hybrids to even test
drive, so the choice was pretty much made at that point.

We couldn't be happier. The only repair we've done in those three years is
replacement of a broken windshield. The transmissionless Prius is a joy to
drive; my wife wouldn't have a manual (she knows how but doesn't like it).
There is 50K miles left on the hybrid system warranty (including the
battery... the hybrid system warranty is 10 yrs/150K miles in about half a
dozen states but only 8 yr/100K in AZ). We average upper 40s mpg in real
world driving, more around town where we do the most driving. It's clean,
quiet, comfortable, responsive and superbly maneuverable. What's not to
like?

On the diesel front, count me out. I just got a new work truck last month -
a TDi F350 Super Duty. As a work vehicle there's a lot to like. It gets
easily double the fuel economy of my previous gasser. On the highway, the
power is phenomenal... at 25 psi boost I'm not surprised! Off the line is a
whole different story. Making a left turn across traffic requires great
patience and sometimes the kindness of strangers. I wish I had four feet:
one for the accelerator, one for the clutch, and two more to do the Fred
Flintstone thing. Add in the clatter and smell and it just isn't something
I'd want in a family car.

Mike

 

A modern automotive diesel powerplant, as about half the new cars sold
in Europe use, is a much different story than the converted tractor
motor Ford is using.

John

 

The International engine that Ford uses in its light trucks turns a lot
faster then any either one of them us in their farm equipment.


mike hunt

 

Even so, it is at nothing approaching the sophistication level of the
best modern European car diesels.

John

 

Pay no attention to "Mike Hunter". He is a notorious pro-Ford liar and
troll in the Toyota newsgroup (to which this thread had been cross-posted).

 

You know, I've heard this comment about battery life and huge battery
replacement cost before. So I'm curious, just how long is the life
expectancy of a hybrid battery? Would that mean that the resale value
of a used hybrid would drop faster with time than a similar model
non-hybrid?

CD

 

It is a good question and one which I suspect the car makers know the
answer to, but are keeping quiet about. The battery technology being
used is a larger implemenation of the same rechargeable battery types
already deployed in laptops, cordless power tools, digital cameras, cell
phone and the like. I have had more laptop batteries totally fail to
take a charge than I would care to think about. They typically work
great at first, but months or years down the line need to be replaced at
a high cost.

With cordless power tools (drills, etc.) it is often cheaper to buy a
whole new one than it is to replace the power packs. Typically a couple
of years of moderate use is all it takes for those battery packs to be
worthless.

Lithium batteries, for example, are generally rated for 300-500
charge-discharge cycles before being useless. Typically as the number of
cycles adds up, the capacity deteriorates.

See: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

Nicad batteries are generally considered usefull for around 700
carefully managed cycles.

See: http://www.directron.com/batteryterms.html

I believe that the Prius and other presently available hybrids use Nicad
for this longer cycle life, even though Lithium batteries offer a
higher power density.

There are no 5-10 year old Nicad laden cars on the road right now, so
only time will tell. My guess is that somewhere around 2009-2010 there
are going to be a bunch of surprised and angry customers, many of them
the second owners of these vehicles.

John

 

A google search using hybrid battery replacement reveals much. The
consensus of many critics seems to be that hybrids, for the price, are
not yet cost effective and are now just a "feel good" car for well off
tree huggers.

nb

 

The hybrids have never been cost effective, pretty much everyone
agrees on that.


=====================

Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.

....G.K. Chesterton

 

The Prius does not use NiCads. It uses nickel-metal hydride (NiMH)
batteries. And the Prius system only discharges htem to about 80% of
capacity. These batteries have very good life, and the limited dicharge
enhances this further. I believe that in normal usage, you can expect the
battery to last 150,000-200,000 miles.

http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kaku.html
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=135399&page=1
http://www.lubbockautos.com/autonews/toyota/062204.shtml

Ed

 

No matter how one choose to spin it, the Prius will need a new battery pack
at some point in its life and the cost at that time will be so high, in
comparison to the value of the vehicle, that its value with spent batteries
will by virtually nothing. Who is going to foolish enough to replace a
$4,000 battery pack in a $4,000 vehicle?

mike hunt