Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda

I was not specifically referring to any particular vehicle or brand but you
just provided your own source that proves MY point, thanks. HP at the
proper RPMs in relation to the torque is what is most important not HP
alone. The Siena needs to be run all the way up to 5600 RPMs to develop
its 215 HP far over its maximum torque of 222 FP at 3600 RPMs The Freestar
develops its HP at well over 1000 RPMs lower at only 4250, much closer to
its maximum torque of 263 FP at a RPM higher than the Sennia. Much better
attuned at using the torque available in each example you cited, and the
reason Toyotas are generally underpowered compared to its competitors
vehicles whether you agree or not is immaterial. There are nay number of
other domestic vehicles you could research and you will find the same high
HP to tongue disparage

mike hunt

 

<snip>

Power is the ability to accomplish work from a physics point of view and
it is indeed power which is required to overcome wind resistance, move a
certain distance and/or increase potential energy (climb a hill).

There is great misunderstanding about the relationship between torque
and power. In modern times the distinctions between manual and
automatic transmissions are becoming moot in this regard as today's
automatic transmissions often have five or six forward gears, which
gives them even more flexibility for optimizing the relationship between
engine speed (RPMs) and work being done than ever before. I don't think
that you actually understand the function of a torque converter
either. It is essentially and infinitely variable transmission which
goes between the engine and the main transmission and provides for a
range of ratios between the two. Modern ones also include an
electrically activated lockiing clutch to disable the converter under
cruise conditions and thus get rid of the high amount of power loss in
the little buggers.

In modern times the differences between "import" and "domestic" motor
design points is becomming smaller all the time. Cadillac's Northstar
has far more in common with a Lexus V-6 than it does with a traditional
1960s style GM motor. The current GM Ecotec 4 cyclinder motor is very
similar to similar size Japanese and European designs. In fact, GM puts
a turbo version of it in the Saabs.

Your Japanese/Domestic comparisons are off the mark and meaningless. I
will gladly take on any V-6 equipped modern Chevrolet or Ford at the
local drag strip or road racing course with my V-6 Honda Accord. GM is
only now starting to implement variable valve timing used to flatten the
torque curve as Honda has been doing for years.

John

 

Just because your dream system hasn't happened is not evidence that the
boogie man exists or that he is THE OIL INDUSTRY. Saps like you fell
for the fish carburator nonsense as well.

John

 

Wind turbines are not free. Dead birds from turbines are a major
issue. Solar cells are still costly to manufacture.

I'm all for development of alternative energy sources, but the problems
are mostly technical and economic, not a matter of conspiracies.

Why don't you work on some of the real challenges instead of filling
your mind with nonsense?

John

 

I hate to say it, but Mike has this one pretty much right .

The only big remaining problem with Nuclear energy is the waste disposal
issue. Despite years of effort and billions of dollars spent, that one
isn't handled yet. Now if I were a conspiracy theory nut then I would
blame the vast Environmental Lobby Industry, which is indeed now a big
business in it's own right with plenty of highly paid full time
employees. In a way, Environmental Lobbying is also a religious
movement with strongly held beliefs, loyal contributor/member/believers
and a strong hatred/distrust for Others!

John

 

So? It still develops more power than the Freestar and the torque to do it
comes on at lower RPMs. Ford would love to declare a higher HP number for
the Freestar, no matter what the RPM, but their crappy engine's power output
falls off dramatically above 4600RPM as it starts to shake itself apart.

So the Toyota downshifts if necessary. Except that I haven't noticed that
mine ever downshifts on the freeway, unless I really want to accelerate.
It's not underpowered.

If the Ford's maximum HP and maximum torque are, as you point out, close
together, that describes an engine with a narrow power band - one that would
require more frequent shifting.

So you say, but you never bring out any facts and figures to support your
allegations. Fact is, you're a blowhard.

Don't think the Freestar's engine is junk? Don't take my word for it.
Check with Edmunds:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/ford/freestar/100412870/researchlanding.html
"Unrefined powertrains with less horsepower and worse fuel mileage than most
competitors..."

 

well, /we/ haven't handled it yet. all we do is stick used rods into
tanks and leave them there. we make no attempt to reprocess, and
frankly, all the money we're spending on storage is a /RIDICULOUS/ waste
if we have no intention of reprocessing!

others reprocess very successfully; they recover the useful stuff and
transform the non-useful stuff into a form that is /much/ safer for long
term storage. again, simply storing unprocessed unmaterial is the worst
possible thing to do, but we're seemingly too paralysed by mass fear and
mass ignorance and gross misinformation to actually do anything
intelligent!!!

 

they're not in their infancy - the energy is just very "un-dense" and
that makes it apita to use.

excuse me - what pressures do you think it's transported at? and how
does that compare with the pressure necessary to store sufficient to run
a car 300 miles at a reasonable volume? do the math.

there's several problems with hydrogen:

1. it typically takes more enery to produce than you get back out - not
really a good idea is you want to quote green credentials as a reason
for use.

2. it's extremely dangerous. that may not bother you, but it bothers me.

3. it's extremely hard to use. have you ever heard of diffusion? how
about hydrogen cracking?

no, hydrogen is great political propaganda, but it ain't no practical
solution.

 

A broken clock is right twice a day - Mike isn't right even that regularly.

And it's hardly a trivial problem. But it does come down to relative risk.
As
we recognize the risks inherent in burning fossil fuel, the nuclear option
looks more attractive even to some envrionmentalists. And some - I'm one -
have favored it for many years. The reason it's not more popular than it
is: it's going to be brought to you by the same people that ran Enron and
similar operations. We should trust them? I'd be much happier if you gave
the business over to the US Navy. They have an impressive safety record
that hasn't been compromised by greed or politics.

The "Environmental Lobby" hasn't a tenth the cash available to the "Oil/Gas
Lobby." The only reason the Enviros have as much support and visibility as
they do is that the science is generally on their side. Oily cash can only
go so far. Contrary to what most people believe, there's a fair amount of
consensus among climatologists and atmospheric scientists that rising
levels of CO2 are attributed to man's activities (deforestation and fossil
fuel use) and that this will lead to SOME change.

We're gambling for very high stakes. Covering our bets, by slowing the
rates of human-induced change would make sense to me. The fossil fuel
industries won't give up their short-term profits, so they put up cash to
fight the science.

It's a matter of priorities. I certainly don't want people freezing to
death to save a trivial amount of oil but our priorities for the last 20
years have been to build bigger cars and houses, not to find ways to reduce,
reuse and recycle. That attitude is going to bite us in the ass.

And there's an economic reason to be out in front on environmental issues -
the country that builds the next generation of solar cells (or other energy
source) will have an economic advantage. We can be that country but it
takes investment to do it. US Corporations would rather puff up executive
salaries than hire engineers and chemists. A recent post said that India's
graduating 350,000 engineers/year to our 70,000. I believe it. And their
science is the same as ours, they can make the same advances that we can but
they're more likely to do it because they're able to put more people on it.
Why is
Toyota on its third generation of hybrid? Because it's a short-term money
maker? Hardly, they think they can own the hybrid market further down the
road. They're going for strategic advantage.

Don't limt yourself to thinking about the energy industry, either. Where
was the last big story on advances in cloning? South Korea. By the way,
they didn't achieve that by insisting Intelligent Design be taught in high
school.

Come to think of it, there's a second economic reason to be out in front on
environmental issues - reducing oil imports would reduce our balance of
trade problem. We're $66 billion in the hole this month and a projected
$700 billion for the year. To put that in perspective, that's like the
mortgage on 3 million reaonably-priced houses. Except we're probably going
to mortgage another 3 million houses next year and it's trending worse. If
we start exporting whatever alternative energy products we develop, that
will also help fix the balance of trade problem.

 

For once I am in agreement with Jim. Reprocessing is not just safe,
its FUN!!!! (Saying that, i used to work at the Sellafield nuclear
reprocessing facility).

There have been some more intruiging systems discussed, including the
'proton transmutation accelerator' which is basicaly bombarding the
waste with a proton gun, to try and do what the alchemists couldn't.
never got past planning stages, abandoned last year iirc.

 

If I remmeber correctly, It takes more energy to produce a
conventional solar cell, than the cell will produce in its lifetime.
Its only reason is for portability and utility (use ambient light,
rather than the added weight of a batery)

 

The fact is you are the blowhard. You supplied the facts yourself but you
still don't understand the relative difference between HP and the ideal
application of tongue to HP. I'll waste no more time trying to enlighten you
on the subject.. Ford could easily develop more HP for that engine by
winding it up if they chose to, but the torgue available at the normal
driving rage of 2,000 RPMs makes for a better performing engine. If you are
satisfied with the power your vehicle has that is your opinion and your
business. The fact is those in the industry knows otherwise, Toyotas are
generally underpowered vis a
v their domestic comparators, whether you happen to agree or not. is
immaterial.


mike hunt

 

Nuclear waste disposal is NOT a scientific problem throughout the world, it
is only a political problem in the US. Environuts are opposed to the dispose
of it in the ground from which it came, as they do in other counties. We
now store it less safely under six feet of water at the sites.

mike hunt

 

You are entitled to you own opinion but the proof is in the pudding, as they
say. You can prove it too yourself if you wish. Drive in hilly or
mountainous parts of the county and notice which vehicles fall behind others
when you come to a grade. ;(

mike hunt

 

Excuse me, dead birds? Cites, please. (IOW, Prove It.)

I've gone by the Tehachapi wind farms several times, and there are a
few local turbines in Palmdale, and there weren't workers out there
sweeping up vast piles of dead birds at the base of the turbines -
matter of fact, I've never seen a single one. If this is such a
"Major Issue", where are they?

--<< Bruce >>--

 

Not trying to be adversarial: around the Mojave/Tehachapi wind
farms I'd expect the local coyotes and other predators to have
discovered, long ago, that the Places With The Thrumming Trees
are good spots at which to catch up stunned, dead or otherwise
helpless meals: within hours, nothing to sweep up. ;-) Going
by what I have seen of the admittedly often scrawny vegetation
there over several visits, even a big bird could lie unseen by
passing road travellers. But I am willing to learn otherwise.

One parallel is not exact but close: power lines commonly snag
birds as they fly past. That's why you will see silvery balls
strung on the lines, especially at valley mouths where flyways
lead up into (and down from) hill country. Here in the UK the
power company have cut local swan deaths by this precaution.

 

I've read articles that said that birds occasionally flew into the blades of
the propeller-type horizontal-axis turbines. I've seen a private one near
Reno, NV close up and have driven by the ones at Tehachapi many times in the
past and have not noticed any dead birds either, but I suppose that the
occasional bird does get chopped. Even though turbine RPM may be relatively
low, the speed of the tip is pretty high due to the diameter of the blades
so a bird that is flying to a particular space which is clear one moment has
a blade coming around the next. Because of this, planners try to place wind
farms out of the path of flocks of birds.

I just happened to read about a company that is developing a vertical axis
wind turbine http://www.tmawind.com/index.htm

They are trying to develop a turbine that is more bird-friendly and does not
develop magnetic resonance that can interfere with aircraft navigation.
Their site had pictures of their turbine but I couldn't find one today. The
turbine was almost as tall as the prop-type but instead of blades, the vanes
looked like long tubes that were cut in half along the long axis, spinning
like a washing machine agitator between fixed vanes that direct the wind
into the moving vanes.

The wind-turbine-powered house I saw was built in the high desert near Reno
over 20 years ago. It had 2 turbines and a room about the size of a one-car
garage filled with lead-acid batteries. The house had 2 sets of wiring, 12
volt for lighting and 110 volt for appliances. I suppose the technology has
advanced quite a bit by now, but it was kind of irritating to watch the
picture on the TV shrink and expand, and the lights fluctuate in intensity.

 

I drive through the Sierra Nevadas frequently and the Rocky Mountains
once every few years. Our V-6 Honda is much, much better at this than
is our V-6 Oldsmobile.

John

 

USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-04-windmills-usat_x.htm

Google is your friend.

John

 

Please don't feed the trolls.