Hybrids

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Bob, May 19, 2005.

  1. Bob

    Bob Guest

    Does anyone have any info on the long-term reliability of hybrids. Any
    brand. Batteries?
     
    Bob, May 19, 2005
    #1
  2. I have a 2002 Prius. So far (2 1/2 years, 45 K miles) it has been the most
    reliable car I've ever owned. Disclaimer: my daughter's '93 Accord has been
    a clear second, considering it had 8 years and 163K miles at the time. I've
    put a couple axles, a timing belt, brakes, a window regulator and an ignitor
    in it in 4 years.

    The question of hybrid battery life comes up all the time. The bottom line
    is that everybody wonders and practically nobody has had problems. One
    battery was destroyed by an insane hybrid control computer (both replaced
    under the 8 yr/100K mile hybrid system warranty), another was punctured by a
    stereo installer. Otherwise the Toyota_Prius' Yahoo group's 11000 members
    have had no main battery failures, even though several are over the 100K
    mile mark. I like to illustrate the point by pointing out a Google search
    for "Acura transmission fail" brings up 17000 hits relating to why the Acura
    transmissions fail and what to do about it, while a search for "Prius
    battery fail" brings up about 9000 hits speculating when a battery would
    fail but seemingly none on any that actually did. One hit refers to a
    battery failing at 245K miles, but the reference doesn't take you to the
    original source. I'm not aware of that happening, although a Prius taxi in
    Canada was bought back by Toyota at about that mileage... the battery was
    still good.

    The Prius does have a 12 volt aux battery that is more troublesome and twice
    the price of a normal 12 volt battery, though. Ours is still okay, but when
    it croaks I'm going to make the adaptation to a more normal battery. The 12
    volt battery just boots the computers and runs the brake pressurization pump
    before the converter kicks in. I guess Toyota figured that meant they could
    use a lawn tractor sized battery. The pre-2004 model also came with tires
    that had a treadwear rating of only 160 (!) which lead to complaints of tire
    life. I understand the current model has more normal tires.

    There is no alternator, starter or even a transmission in the conventional
    sense. The power steering and brake booster are electric, as is the A/C in
    the current model. 12 volts for accessories and recharging the aux battery
    comes rom a 100A converter when the hybrid system is "ready." Cruise control
    is nothing more than an extra brake pedal switch and a control switch
    assembly - everything else is just lines of code already in the hybrid
    computer. Reverse is still the same gearing as forward, but the hybrid
    computer tells the power train to back the car up, so it does. There is even
    forward (or backward, in reverse) torque when in gear, very much like a
    conventional auto tranny.

    Honda's IMA system can be suped up, since it is essentially a conventional
    power train with a boost from an electric motor. Toyota's can't, since the
    entire system is under control of the hybrid computer. Adding a turbo, as
    one turbo mfr has suggested doing, would certainly destroy the hybrid
    transaxle. The engine is coupled to the transaxle by a torque limiter that
    looks very much like a conventional clutch without a throwout, and the
    "transmission" is simulated by generating AC from one motor/generator,
    rectifying it and inverting it to drive the other motor generator. There is
    some direct torque coupling but significantly increasing the engine output
    would destroy one of the electronic parts immediately if the torque limiter
    survived. Even putting headers on the engine can't improve the output,
    because the hybrid computer would simply get in a snit about the power not
    being as prescribed. For related reasons, the engine max rpm is held to 5000
    rpm (maybe a little more on the current model?) by the hybrid computer. Not
    the choice of teenage boys everywhere, but a huge plus for engine life I'm
    sure.

    The Honda system is adaptable to either manual or automatic transmissions.
    The Toyota system is not available with a manual gearbox or automatic
    transmission, only their "electronic CVT". Since there is no actual
    transmission (it is a fixed planetary differential with two electric
    motor/generators) there is no place to put a gearbox. Even if you found a
    trick to do that, it would be hard to shift a car that won't even let you
    decide when the engine runs. With the car in "park" I can press the
    accelerator to the floor. The engine always starts, if off, and gradually
    builds speed to some specific speed around 2000 rpm in a minute or two.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 20, 2005
    #2
  3. Bob

    L Alpert Guest

    Well, good news so far, but I have always wondered what will happen 6-10
    years from now when batteries need to be replaced in mass. Are they
    recyclable? If not, will they have to be handled as toxic waste? If so, how
    environmental friendly is that?
     
    L Alpert, May 20, 2005
    #3
  4. I would hope that for 2.5 years and 45K miles, ANY Toyota would be
    dead-reliable.
     
    Elmo P. Shagnasty, May 20, 2005
    #4
  5. Toyota already has a program to buy them back for $200 and to recycle all
    the metals. Few batteries probably will ever reach the point where they will
    be replaced though - the battery is expected to last the design life of the
    car. Individual cells can be replaced and the hybrid computer even has
    diagnostics for determining if individual cells are performing properly. I
    expect the overwhelming majority of Toyota's hybrid batteries will be sold
    for the bounty when the cars are scrapped if current trends continue. There
    are 1999 model year Prius cars in Japan and their batteries are doing fine.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 20, 2005
    #5
  6. Me too. My previous new car was a 1984 Dodge (I plead insanity!) and it was
    awful from the start. A carburetor rebuild in the first week, a wiring short
    I spent all day chasing through the interior of the car the first year out
    of warranty.... At 5 years age and 90K miles it needed a new timing chain.
    Step 1: remove engine from car. The timing chain cover was blocked by the
    wheel well when the engine was mounted. You get the picture. Honda and
    Toyota forever! No Nissans - we shall not speak of that again.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 20, 2005
    #6
  7. Bob

    muzz Guest

    It might help you to be aware that even tho the Honda people advertise
    48 mpg on the civic hybrid, mine gets 33 in the summer and 34 in the
    winter after 18 months of conservative driving.
     
    muzz, May 20, 2005
    #7
  8. Bob

    L Alpert Guest

    Are you sure? One can get that with a regular Civic. Not impressive at
    all. Maybe there is something qrong?
     
    L Alpert, May 21, 2005
    #8
  9. Bob

    L Alpert Guest

    It makes good sense as long as the components can be reused. It would be
    interesting to find a site that would break down just what parts are and are
    not recyclable. Google...here I come....
     
    L Alpert, May 21, 2005
    #9
  10. The benefit of hybrids, especially at the current stage of development,
    varies a lot with how the car is used. A Civic hybrid gets only slightly
    better fuel economy at freeway speeds than a conventional Civic, and that is
    only because the engine was downsized when hybridizing the car. The electric
    assist is intended to make up the difference in acceleration, but there are
    varying opinions how well that works for the Civic.

    Much of the disappointment comes from design considerations. Honda wanted to
    compete in fuel economy, and to get the very best economy they started with
    a base model that did well to start with. They could have taken the other
    path, economical power, as they did with their DualNote concept car... but
    I'm sure cost would have popped up on that adventure!

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 21, 2005
    #10
  11. Bob

    K`Tetch Guest

    All batteries will 'last'. Define 'design life of the car' - 10 years?
    less? Batteries degrade on 2 factors, time, and charge. Lead acid
    batteries, for instance, degrade at roughly 10% capacity/year, even if
    kept in pristine condition. NiMH tend to last around 8-10 years at
    most. even if topped up - about the same life as a lead acid kept
    optimum. So, according to you, a Prius is only designed to last 8-10
    years? sounds like a poor investment to me. I know my 17yo civic's
    still going strong. my 16yo volvo is utterly bombproof - nothings
    needed doing in the 5 years i've had that, except for the routine
    maintainance in the manual. tell me your prius will do that.
    99 is only 5 years.Still well within life. I've got a niMH battery in
    my MD recorder thats from 97, and thats still going strong, despite
    having a hell of a lot more c/d cycles than that prius. 5 years
    isNOTHING to a battery. 8-10 is the end of the life, even for the very
    best batteries 9which include hawker sbs series, which is around $250
    for a 30Ah 12V battery (also the ONLY lead acid batteries, that i'm
    aware of, that can be checked into aircraft luggage)
     
    K`Tetch, May 21, 2005
    #11
  12. Bob

    K`Tetch Guest

    You'd think so. Friend bought an 05 camry in december. Its been in the
    shop 4 times, including headlight replacement, 3 times to fix the
    airbag system (was on its last-lemon-chance) ABS problem This for a
    car thats 6 months old, and 14k miles on it.... Oh, i should also
    mention that there's already rust on the car (and this is georgia, it
    don't rain that much!)

    Toyota hasn't been the same since half the management resigned in 01,
    and they switched steel suppliers to cheap south american steel
    (whereas before, they'd been using high quality turkish steel, at
    least for europe)
     
    K`Tetch, May 21, 2005
    #12
  13. Bob

    muzz Guest

    Yes - I've had it back to the dealer twice - computer showed no
    problem - the second time the service manager asked me
    "well, just what mileage would you expect anyway?" I told him
    I didn't expect 48 but thought low 40s should be expected.
    He had no answer to that - as far as how the car is driven, when
    it says 48 city, most people would assume normal around the
    town driving would do. I did get 40 on a 2000 mile round trip
    on the interstate last summer, just to see what it would do - of
    course we don't usually take the civic on long trips, so that
    figure is pretty redundant.
     
    muzz, May 21, 2005
    #13
  14. Battery life is most strongly dependent on operating conditions. The flooded
    lead-acids in our communication sites at work have a typical life of 20-30
    years, and most of those are taken out of service with the capacity still
    within specs (our battery guys load test them twice a year). They usually
    fail because the positive terminal has "grown" out of the case. I guess
    there is a chemical explanation for that phenomenon, but I don't know it.
    Anyway, the NiMH main battery in the Prius is kept within a relatively
    narrow range of state-of-charge, temperature controlled, and with charge and
    discharge rates limited. It should be good for the life of the car, as
    Toyota says. 15 to 20 years should be about right. I would be as surprised
    at failures within 10 years as I would at lasting to 30 years. Toyota is
    betting their own money there will be negligible failures before 8
    years/100K miles (10 years/150K in California, IIRC), so I feel comfortable.
    More than that, Toyota's credibility would suffer horribly if there were
    such a rash of failures, and I won't insult Toyota's leadership by
    suggesting they are that reckless. I think it's more likely they know
    exactly what they are doing - a lesson our stateside companies should learn.

    What is the design life of a car? Only Rolls Royce has had the nerve to
    advertise that; they used to advertise 50 years. The standard in America was
    implicitly 10 years for a very long time. Most quality cars, like Honda and
    Toyota, are probably around 15 years - certainly more than 10, certainly
    less than 20. Your Volvo and mine (an '85 765T) also had design lives in
    that range. There is no percentage in making a car last 20 years, and 10
    years builds a reputation for schlock (like GM, Ford and Chrysler have), so
    the 15 year target is the sweet spot. It didn't work out well for my '85,
    which has the French wiring that had a 5 year life, but that's life. At
    least yours was built after the biodegradable wiring era.

    The central point is that every individual car reaches the end of its life
    sometime. It may be an untimely end in a collision, but more often it needs
    a repair that the car is no longer worth. For my last Volvo, a 1970 145, it
    was when the car was no longer worth putting a water pump in. (I never
    thought to question what the life of the water pump is.) This '85 won't
    survive its first turbo failure - at 235K miles it is overdue. I had a 1970
    Mercury Capri that was no longer worth a U-joint, which was integral with
    the drive shaft. It's always something. With the Prius it is very unlikely
    in my estimation that battery failure will be a significant factor. I expect
    at least 15 years from the car, and I expect the battery will still be
    servicable at that point. If you feel differently, you'd be wise not to buy
    one.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 21, 2005
    #14
  15. Bob

    K`Tetch Guest

    Then you have a very low level requirement. Its slightly erring on the
    cautious side to say that lead acid capacity decreases at 10%/year
    However, after 10 years, you're left at 35% capacity. oh, the load
    will still be ok, but the caacity will be shot to hell. The growing
    terminals are the exact same reason that the capacity drops - chemical
    action.That 35% is also some eavy rounding. after 20 years, you're at
    11-12% capacity. This is, as i remind you, keeping th batteries in
    their optimum condition.treat them sub-optimally and they won't do
    half as well.

    Toyota has very little credability with me anyway, but then, are you
    SURE its their money they're bettingwith? there's a long running
    dispute between toyota and pastafont steel, for instance, where toyota
    owes pastafont some $5m for steel its not paid for.
    $5million+interest over 5 years buys a lot of hybrid battery sets. If,
    however, your batteries are claimed to last 10 years, i'd be very
    interseted ina bout 10 sets of them (I build Electrically powered
    vehicles as a hobby) so i've contacted Matsushita, since this kind of
    longevity is something Saft hasn't been able to give me with their
    12Ah Sub-F cells (nice cells, especially the max discharge of
    100A/cell, which moves the bottleneck to the controllers - a 1500A
    150V controller isn't as easy to build as you might think - for those
    that aren't up on your maths, thats about 300Hp, less losses to
    efficiency)
     
    K`Tetch, May 22, 2005
    #15
  16. Bob

    L Alpert Guest

    Dissapointing to say the least.... :-(
     
    L Alpert, May 22, 2005
    #16
  17. Bob

    Jason Guest


    Hello,
    I read an article about Hybrid vehicles in a car magazine. The magazine
    staff used a Hybrid vehicle for about two years. Each of the staff members
    that used the car (for free) for trips had to write a report related to
    problems and miles per gallon. The consensus was that gas mileage was
    great when the trip involved lots of city (aka stop and go) driving but
    was very poor when the trip involved lots of freeway and interstate
    driving. The reporter that wrote the story indicated that the electric
    engine kicks in quite a lot in low speed stop and go driving but rarely
    kicks in on interstate and freeway driving. It was his opinion that this
    was the reason for the differences in the miles per gallon. The
    conclusion: If you plan to do a lot of city driving--buy a hybrid. If you
    plan to use the vehicle for lots of freeway and interstate driving--don't
    buy a hybrid.
     
    Jason, May 22, 2005
    #17
  18. Which kind? The series hybrid type such as what Honda does, or the
    incredibly complex parallel hybrid type such as what Toyota does (and
    licenses to Ford)?


    If you understand what a hybrid does, and what problem it's trying to
    solve, this is no surprise at all.
     
    Elmo P. Shagnasty, May 22, 2005
    #18
  19. 20 years is the standard design life for communications lead-acid batteries,
    although cell sites often go for the quick and dirty versions with 12 year
    design life or less:
    http://industrialenergy.exide.com/index.asp?gnb=2 and select "Flooded"
    technologies
    The load test is a complete capacity test; loss of 20% capacity is the
    trigger for replacement. Most have less than 10% loss in capacity after 20
    years and are usually budgeted for replacement within 30 years - earlier if
    they show signs of case failure or (more rarely) loss of capacity.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 22, 2005
    #19
  20. From the description it would have to be Toyota's series/parallel Prius.
    Exactly. In theory, a serial hybrid could be made with a very low power
    engine and using just the electric storage for acceleration, and in that way
    get a measurable improvement in freeway economy. But for the forseeable
    future hybrids just don't have a significant advantage at freeway speeds.
    Cars like the Civic are pretty efficient at that already and there is little
    room for improvement.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, May 22, 2005
    #20
Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.