Ignore Check Engine light at your peril!!

macpherson front and torsion beam rear won't /allow/ you to drive it
fast dude. and the si has the same output as the base, only it's
heavier with all the accessories...

i'm hanging on to my 89 civic hatches for my fun wheels for the time
being.

http://www.indyscca.org/SoloFiles/SoloResults/2011/FunEvent/2011_indy_fun_event_040311_raw.htm

couple in the top 10, with some serious dough placing well behind...

 

macpherson front and torsion beam rear won't /allow/ you to drive it
fast dude. and the si has the same output as the base, only it's
heavier with all the accessories...[/QUOTE]

Wait--are you saying there is a Fit Si?

Not sport edition--actual Si, like I mentioned the other day. Put the
Civic motor into it, do up a proper suspension and wheels/tires, pretty
up the interior...make it true to the Si vision--the small car with the
big (relatively speaking) motor and a good suspension.

That car, the one I want, doesn't exist. You're right.

 

macpherson front and torsion beam rear won't /allow/ you to drive it
fast dude. and the si has the same output as the base, only it's
heavier with all the accessories...[/QUOTE]

Wait--are you saying there is a Fit Si?

Not sport edition--actual Si, like I mentioned the other day. Put the
Civic motor into it, do up a proper suspension and wheels/tires, pretty
up the interior...make it true to the Si vision--the small car with the
big (relatively speaking) motor and a good suspension.

That car, the one I want, doesn't exist. You're right.

 

<replying to Elmo>

They assuredly did not. Even the NHTSA does not generally act until they
receive at least 1,000 complaints. Anything below that number tends to
fall into the "white noise" category, where it is difficult to determine
patterns.

Honda waited until they were certain they had a systemic issue, then
went -- expensively -- all-out to find a solution. I have personally
corresponded with, and advised, numerous owners who had got stuck with
the defective transmissions. Just about all of them have had Honda pick
up the entire tab for the replacement, and some have struck a deal where
Honda paid for the parts and they paid the labor. In most cases, Honda
did not argue at all: when the dealership made the "goodwill" out-of-
warranty request, Honda agreed immediately.

My observation is that Honda has been very generous with automatic-
transmission warranty-repairs. This fiasco has been horrendously
expensive for Honda, and has resulted in great damage to their
reputation. It is not an experience they can afford to repeat.

Almost all of the people I corresponded with had taken their cars to
independent garages or a transmission shop, and were shocked when told
how much it would cost to fix their transmissions. None were aware of
the various recalls and TSBs, and none of the garages seem to have been
aware of them either.

I am happy to be able to say that I have helped many owners to save a
huge amount of money simply by being able to inform them about the known
problems, the recalls, the TSBs, and Honda's "goodwill" warranty; it's a
good feeling.

<repying to jim>

Honda's automatic-transmission woes had nothing to do with the
bean counters. They had to do with poor design, and poor
quality-control.

Honda has suffered mightily from their laxity, and has since corrected
the problem entirely. The 2005+ automatics have stellar reliability
records, and are probably the very best they've ever made.

 

<replying to Elmo>

They assuredly did not. Even the NHTSA does not generally act until they
receive at least 1,000 complaints. Anything below that number tends to
fall into the "white noise" category, where it is difficult to determine
patterns.

Honda waited until they were certain they had a systemic issue, then
went -- expensively -- all-out to find a solution. I have personally
corresponded with, and advised, numerous owners who had got stuck with
the defective transmissions. Just about all of them have had Honda pick
up the entire tab for the replacement, and some have struck a deal where
Honda paid for the parts and they paid the labor. In most cases, Honda
did not argue at all: when the dealership made the "goodwill" out-of-
warranty request, Honda agreed immediately.

My observation is that Honda has been very generous with automatic-
transmission warranty-repairs. This fiasco has been horrendously
expensive for Honda, and has resulted in great damage to their
reputation. It is not an experience they can afford to repeat.

Almost all of the people I corresponded with had taken their cars to
independent garages or a transmission shop, and were shocked when told
how much it would cost to fix their transmissions. None were aware of
the various recalls and TSBs, and none of the garages seem to have been
aware of them either.

I am happy to be able to say that I have helped many owners to save a
huge amount of money simply by being able to inform them about the known
problems, the recalls, the TSBs, and Honda's "goodwill" warranty; it's a
good feeling.

<repying to jim>

Honda's automatic-transmission woes had nothing to do with the
bean counters. They had to do with poor design, and poor
quality-control.

Honda has suffered mightily from their laxity, and has since corrected
the problem entirely. The 2005+ automatics have stellar reliability
records, and are probably the very best they've ever made.

 

<replying to Elmo>

They assuredly did not. Even the NHTSA does not generally act until they
receive at least 1,000 complaints. Anything below that number tends to
fall into the "white noise" category, where it is difficult to determine
patterns.

Honda waited until they were certain they had a systemic issue, then
went -- expensively -- all-out to find a solution. I have personally
corresponded with, and advised, numerous owners who had got stuck with
the defective transmissions. Just about all of them have had Honda pick
up the entire tab for the replacement, and some have struck a deal where
Honda paid for the parts and they paid the labor. In most cases, Honda
did not argue at all: when the dealership made the "goodwill" out-of-
warranty request, Honda agreed immediately.[/QUOTE]

That was back prior to 2007.

Things changed DRAMATICALLY at American Honda when the economy crashed.

Time was, they went too far with goodwill in some circumstances--but
hey, a long term view of things says that's OK. My mechanic talked of a
guy whom they had never seen before at the dealership, ever, who came in
and ended up getting a brand new transmission--DESPITE his having a
trailer hitch on the back of his Odyssey, and his admission that he
towed a trailer through the mountains on a regular basis.

That was back in 2004.

Back in the day, Honda recognized the ultimate value of the goodwill
gesture.

Fast forward to today, and even my salesman admits that Honda has--if
anything--pulled back TOO far on the goodwill, all in the name of
reigning in costs.

This discussion came up last September as my 73K mile Odyssey was
getting a new transmission and tranny ECU, a $5000 repair, which Honda
covered at the 50% rate--and that only grudgingly and after long
negotiation involving both me and executive management at the dealership.

And I have at this point a 25 year relationship with this dealer, both
in sales and in service, for me and my entire extended family. I was in
regularly for every maintenance, even oil changes. I believed in the
Honda goodwill system, and benefited from it in the past--because I was
a good customer with the service history to prove it. I have absolutely
nothing against the dealer--in fact, if they switched to selling
Chryslers tomorrow, I might go in and talk to them. But I have no
reason to give Honda another dollar of my hard earned money after this
snub of theirs.

73K miles over 9 years, with my wife ferrying the kids around town.
Hell, 10K of those miles were highway trips to see family. That leaves
7K miles/year over 9 years of puttering around. And this should destroy
a transmission?

Honda, thy name is irony. Go sit in the corner and discuss life with
Chrysler.

I repeat: after the economy crashed, Honda pulled way, WAY back on the
goodwill repairs. They now have $2500 more of my money that absolutely
NO Honda owner, who bought the car new and who had it maintained on
schedule by the Honda dealer, should ever have had to pay.

I was fully aware of the recalls and the TSBs. I currently use exactly
one mechanic at this dealership; he's been there for 20+ years, has
worked on my cars all that time, and is very sharp, and knows all the
ins and outs of Honda and Honda cars. He and I chat while he works on
my car.

I was the very first customer to do the 5 speed tranny 2nd gear recall.
No one had done the procedure before, so I got to get in there and help
set up the digital camera (which had never been out of the box), set up
the jig, help my guy understand the instructions, and help them get the
photos off the camera to send to Honda. I even had the photos on my own
laptop for many years. They showed no bluing, so I got the oil jet. No
big deal.

Yeah. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

But American Honda has turned into something very, very bad over the
last few years.

On top of that, one of the other mechanics at this dealership--who also
was allowed to touch my car when he worked there, making that a total of
two people who ever touched my cars--got a job several years ago with
Honda engineering. In fact, Honda called me because he listed me as a
reference; he got the job, so I must have said something right. Anyway,
he now says that he despairs for Honda engineering, because they're
screwing everything up.

He's the one who told me that Acura still gets it right in the details,
but that the Honda brand has gone down the toilet.

A colleague of mine seems to bear that out. Never a Honda owner, three
years ago he bought a current-model Accord. V6, leather, loaded. Over
those three years he wrestled with the car and the dealer and American
Honda over an engine problem that no one could seem to diagnose, or make
happen on demand, or whatever. After pushing hard for the entire time,
he finally got the dealer to admit that there's a problem with that
engine where one particular cylinder fouls the plug within very few
miles. You can replace the plug, but it just fouls right away again.

It took a couple of years for them to admit this. My colleague got
peeved throughout this, because he knew he was being led around. It got
to the point at the end where he forced them to buy the car back at a
very attractive price. He immediately went out and bought an Infiniti
G35--and now swears AGAINST Honda.

This would never have happened in the 80s and 90s.

The days of Honda building quality cars at a reasonable price and then
taking care of their customers are long, long gone. You might as well
buy a Hyundai and save $7000 up front and know from the start you're
likely to get treated like that, instead of spending $7000 more for a
Honda and being surprised when you get treated like that.

That may be, but for the people like me that they dumped because "it's
too expensive to do goodwill anymore, even on our particularly fucked up
transmissions" are gone for good.

Not only that, we're telling the story everywhere we go. I myself take
a printout of my story whenever I walk into a car dealer to kick tires.
I don't mention my dealer, because he's nowhere to blame in any of this,
but American Honda gets what they deserve--and every car salesman in
town will eventually have my story to tell.

I don't get a dime off any of that, but I get great satisfaction knowing
that in the end I will have cost American Honda much, MUCH more than the
$2500 they stuck me with.

 

<replying to Elmo>

They assuredly did not. Even the NHTSA does not generally act until they
receive at least 1,000 complaints. Anything below that number tends to
fall into the "white noise" category, where it is difficult to determine
patterns.

Honda waited until they were certain they had a systemic issue, then
went -- expensively -- all-out to find a solution. I have personally
corresponded with, and advised, numerous owners who had got stuck with
the defective transmissions. Just about all of them have had Honda pick
up the entire tab for the replacement, and some have struck a deal where
Honda paid for the parts and they paid the labor. In most cases, Honda
did not argue at all: when the dealership made the "goodwill" out-of-
warranty request, Honda agreed immediately.[/QUOTE]

That was back prior to 2007.

Things changed DRAMATICALLY at American Honda when the economy crashed.

Time was, they went too far with goodwill in some circumstances--but
hey, a long term view of things says that's OK. My mechanic talked of a
guy whom they had never seen before at the dealership, ever, who came in
and ended up getting a brand new transmission--DESPITE his having a
trailer hitch on the back of his Odyssey, and his admission that he
towed a trailer through the mountains on a regular basis.

That was back in 2004.

Back in the day, Honda recognized the ultimate value of the goodwill
gesture.

Fast forward to today, and even my salesman admits that Honda has--if
anything--pulled back TOO far on the goodwill, all in the name of
reigning in costs.

This discussion came up last September as my 73K mile Odyssey was
getting a new transmission and tranny ECU, a $5000 repair, which Honda
covered at the 50% rate--and that only grudgingly and after long
negotiation involving both me and executive management at the dealership.

And I have at this point a 25 year relationship with this dealer, both
in sales and in service, for me and my entire extended family. I was in
regularly for every maintenance, even oil changes. I believed in the
Honda goodwill system, and benefited from it in the past--because I was
a good customer with the service history to prove it. I have absolutely
nothing against the dealer--in fact, if they switched to selling
Chryslers tomorrow, I might go in and talk to them. But I have no
reason to give Honda another dollar of my hard earned money after this
snub of theirs.

73K miles over 9 years, with my wife ferrying the kids around town.
Hell, 10K of those miles were highway trips to see family. That leaves
7K miles/year over 9 years of puttering around. And this should destroy
a transmission?

Honda, thy name is irony. Go sit in the corner and discuss life with
Chrysler.

I repeat: after the economy crashed, Honda pulled way, WAY back on the
goodwill repairs. They now have $2500 more of my money that absolutely
NO Honda owner, who bought the car new and who had it maintained on
schedule by the Honda dealer, should ever have had to pay.

I was fully aware of the recalls and the TSBs. I currently use exactly
one mechanic at this dealership; he's been there for 20+ years, has
worked on my cars all that time, and is very sharp, and knows all the
ins and outs of Honda and Honda cars. He and I chat while he works on
my car.

I was the very first customer to do the 5 speed tranny 2nd gear recall.
No one had done the procedure before, so I got to get in there and help
set up the digital camera (which had never been out of the box), set up
the jig, help my guy understand the instructions, and help them get the
photos off the camera to send to Honda. I even had the photos on my own
laptop for many years. They showed no bluing, so I got the oil jet. No
big deal.

Yeah. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

But American Honda has turned into something very, very bad over the
last few years.

On top of that, one of the other mechanics at this dealership--who also
was allowed to touch my car when he worked there, making that a total of
two people who ever touched my cars--got a job several years ago with
Honda engineering. In fact, Honda called me because he listed me as a
reference; he got the job, so I must have said something right. Anyway,
he now says that he despairs for Honda engineering, because they're
screwing everything up.

He's the one who told me that Acura still gets it right in the details,
but that the Honda brand has gone down the toilet.

A colleague of mine seems to bear that out. Never a Honda owner, three
years ago he bought a current-model Accord. V6, leather, loaded. Over
those three years he wrestled with the car and the dealer and American
Honda over an engine problem that no one could seem to diagnose, or make
happen on demand, or whatever. After pushing hard for the entire time,
he finally got the dealer to admit that there's a problem with that
engine where one particular cylinder fouls the plug within very few
miles. You can replace the plug, but it just fouls right away again.

It took a couple of years for them to admit this. My colleague got
peeved throughout this, because he knew he was being led around. It got
to the point at the end where he forced them to buy the car back at a
very attractive price. He immediately went out and bought an Infiniti
G35--and now swears AGAINST Honda.

This would never have happened in the 80s and 90s.

The days of Honda building quality cars at a reasonable price and then
taking care of their customers are long, long gone. You might as well
buy a Hyundai and save $7000 up front and know from the start you're
likely to get treated like that, instead of spending $7000 more for a
Honda and being surprised when you get treated like that.

That may be, but for the people like me that they dumped because "it's
too expensive to do goodwill anymore, even on our particularly fucked up
transmissions" are gone for good.

Not only that, we're telling the story everywhere we go. I myself take
a printout of my story whenever I walk into a car dealer to kick tires.
I don't mention my dealer, because he's nowhere to blame in any of this,
but American Honda gets what they deserve--and every car salesman in
town will eventually have my story to tell.

I don't get a dime off any of that, but I get great satisfaction knowing
that in the end I will have cost American Honda much, MUCH more than the
$2500 they stuck me with.

 

they are very much in the minority. nobody i've met who has had honda
transmission problems before i know them has been able to get theirs
replaced for free. typical charges are $3.5k to $4.5k. and a
wagon-load of resentment and brand hostility.

i can't believe it wasn't a deliberate decision.

1. no engineer, unless they're a truly appallingly incompetent fraud,
would make a mistake on materials spec this bad. especially when they
had all the prior bullet-proof honda transmissions, including the
three-shaft designs, to reach to for example.

2. it's a beancounter's ongoing deliberate decision to continue to keep
parts off the market [and] by offering transmissions on an exchange-only
basis.

3. it's a beancounter's deliberate decision to make the same problem
appear across multiple different models/transmissions at the same time.
the accord transmission has no parts commonality with the civic, and
has a dramatically different load profile, yet they both had problems in
the same kind of mileage profiles. odyssey and pilot? same again.

no dude, it was, and from #2, remains, a policy decision.

honda thinking they could regularly shaft their customers just like
detroit does got them into this situation. they probably even
anticipated some backlash and ran the numbers accordingly. but their
mistake was not understanding the /degree/ of backlash they'd get from
their customers and how much they'd screw up their reputation and
goodwill. in that regard, it truly was a monumental goat ****. and
they deserve every little bit of it. and continue to deserve it for as
long as they continue to withhold parts and blow smoke up people's asses.

 

they are very much in the minority. nobody i've met who has had honda
transmission problems before i know them has been able to get theirs
replaced for free. typical charges are $3.5k to $4.5k. and a
wagon-load of resentment and brand hostility.

i can't believe it wasn't a deliberate decision.

1. no engineer, unless they're a truly appallingly incompetent fraud,
would make a mistake on materials spec this bad. especially when they
had all the prior bullet-proof honda transmissions, including the
three-shaft designs, to reach to for example.

2. it's a beancounter's ongoing deliberate decision to continue to keep
parts off the market [and] by offering transmissions on an exchange-only
basis.

3. it's a beancounter's deliberate decision to make the same problem
appear across multiple different models/transmissions at the same time.
the accord transmission has no parts commonality with the civic, and
has a dramatically different load profile, yet they both had problems in
the same kind of mileage profiles. odyssey and pilot? same again.

no dude, it was, and from #2, remains, a policy decision.

honda thinking they could regularly shaft their customers just like
detroit does got them into this situation. they probably even
anticipated some backlash and ran the numbers accordingly. but their
mistake was not understanding the /degree/ of backlash they'd get from
their customers and how much they'd screw up their reputation and
goodwill. in that regard, it truly was a monumental goat ****. and
they deserve every little bit of it. and continue to deserve it for as
long as they continue to withhold parts and blow smoke up people's asses.

 

right, there isn't one.

they'd have to do the suspension. the current config on the fit is
pretty much useless for anything but driving in a straight line. they
should do what vw have been doing - put a decent multi-link rear on the
gti while the base models get the cheaper trailing torsion beam crap.

honda have lost the plot. toyota get it. the scion models are what
they use to build their niche. but toyota are cheap and they think cars
should handle like buicks. honda used to be freakin' awesome and they
made cheap cars that had the potential to behave like a real car should.
but these days, they have their heads so far up their ass with their
copycatting of detroit big trucks, huge heavy sedans, and planned
"downstream revenue" [built-in transmission failures], they've
completely lost sight of what allowed them to break into the u.s. market
in the first place.

if they don't have the gonads to face their incompetence directly, they
should do what toyota have done: launch a separate brand, populate it
with a few models that are CHEAP TO GET INTO, that allow multiple
bolt-in engine configurations, and that have decent wishbone suspension
that has the necessary intrinsics to be tunable. if they had a motor
option that could compete with the wrx or the evo, especially if with a
4wd config, suddenly they'd be every nippon fanboi's wet dream.*

"win on sunday, sell on monday." the old cars sales adage. tried and true.



* have you seen the prices of 4wd civic wagons lately? have you seen
their insane fanatical following among the "2ner" crowd?
unbe-freakin'-lievable!

 

right, there isn't one.

they'd have to do the suspension. the current config on the fit is
pretty much useless for anything but driving in a straight line. they
should do what vw have been doing - put a decent multi-link rear on the
gti while the base models get the cheaper trailing torsion beam crap.

honda have lost the plot. toyota get it. the scion models are what
they use to build their niche. but toyota are cheap and they think cars
should handle like buicks. honda used to be freakin' awesome and they
made cheap cars that had the potential to behave like a real car should.
but these days, they have their heads so far up their ass with their
copycatting of detroit big trucks, huge heavy sedans, and planned
"downstream revenue" [built-in transmission failures], they've
completely lost sight of what allowed them to break into the u.s. market
in the first place.

if they don't have the gonads to face their incompetence directly, they
should do what toyota have done: launch a separate brand, populate it
with a few models that are CHEAP TO GET INTO, that allow multiple
bolt-in engine configurations, and that have decent wishbone suspension
that has the necessary intrinsics to be tunable. if they had a motor
option that could compete with the wrx or the evo, especially if with a
4wd config, suddenly they'd be every nippon fanboi's wet dream.*

"win on sunday, sell on monday." the old cars sales adage. tried and true.



* have you seen the prices of 4wd civic wagons lately? have you seen
their insane fanatical following among the "2ner" crowd?
unbe-freakin'-lievable!

 

Easily doable--but they'd have to bring back all the real engineers who
retired.

NSX, S2000, CVCC...lotsa talent wandered through the Honda halls back in
the day.

 

Easily doable--but they'd have to bring back all the real engineers who
retired.

NSX, S2000, CVCC...lotsa talent wandered through the Honda halls back in
the day.

 

That was back prior to 2007.[/QUOTE]



In my case, it's up to 2010.

Acura is just a marketing arm for certain Honda products. Honda V6
automatics are identical whether installed in Acura- or Honda-branded
vehicles.

Most mechanical TSBs for Acura products are word-for-word identical to
Honda TSBs. The only real differences between Acura and Honda are in trim
and comfort/convenience equipment, and that's usually where you find TSBs
unique to each brand.


<more snippage>


I understand your position, and I'm sorry you had the experiences you did.
But all I can relate is what I have seen and been party to.

 

That was back prior to 2007.[/QUOTE]



In my case, it's up to 2010.

Acura is just a marketing arm for certain Honda products. Honda V6
automatics are identical whether installed in Acura- or Honda-branded
vehicles.

Most mechanical TSBs for Acura products are word-for-word identical to
Honda TSBs. The only real differences between Acura and Honda are in trim
and comfort/convenience equipment, and that's usually where you find TSBs
unique to each brand.


<more snippage>


I understand your position, and I'm sorry you had the experiences you did.
But all I can relate is what I have seen and been party to.

 

elmo's story is far from unique. friends of mine, both honda and acura
branded vehicles, have had this treatment for accords, tl's and civics
when all these transmissions have prematurely failed. since you're
putting yourself forward as honda's representative on tha interwebs, are
you sure you're not being astroturfed with "genuine" consumer
testimonials that are actually being generated by honda's p.r. agency?

 

elmo's story is far from unique. friends of mine, both honda and acura
branded vehicles, have had this treatment for accords, tl's and civics
when all these transmissions have prematurely failed. since you're
putting yourself forward as honda's representative on tha interwebs, are
you sure you're not being astroturfed with "genuine" consumer
testimonials that are actually being generated by honda's p.r. agency?