Import owners are to blame for the recession

It's based on what owners tell the organizations collecting the data. If
you're looking for some sort of double-blind study that determines which
vehicle is the most reliable, then you're not going to find it.

According to all the data, the Japanese models are almost always more
reliable, and they stay on the road longer.

Of course there could be many reasons for this. Maybe the owners of
Japanese nameplate vehicles take better care of their cars because they
tend to be better educated with higher incomes. There could be a lot of
factors causing the data to be what it is.

There's another issue as well. I'm sure everyone knows people with the
attitude of, 'I owned a Ford and had xyz problem so I'm never buying an
American car again,' yet it's rare to find someone with the same
attitude about Hondas or Toyotas, even though both companies have
produced an occasional crappy model.

Finally, there's the rental car problem. Almost every time you rent a
vehicle in the U.S., you get a bottom of the line American nameplate
vehicle that the manufacturer had equipped specifically for the rental
market, and which is sold to the rental agency at a very low price. You
drive these cars and you think that nothing has changed from the 1970's.
On the rare occasions that the rental agency has a Toyota, Subaru, or
Nissan, it's a regular production model that hasn't been decontented,
and it's often a "free upgrade" because the agency is out of what the
renter requested.

 

Yet I bet they exist. I am sure that every major car company buys the
registration data and analyses the crap out of it. The only time you
see any claims made on longevity are from Chevy on trucks and they
don't give you the numbers, just their interpretation. I've always
though that if there was conclusive data either way, it would show up
in advertising. Instead you get something like Toyota's current
claim - "the best overall value." I assume what this really means is -
"We know we are screwing you on price, but we hope you won't notice."

The only data I've seen is that Canadian data someone published
earlier. "All" takes in a lot more room. I certainly don't see a lot
of older Japanese cars on the road in my area. And my personal
experience (including the experience of those close to me) does not
match this claim.

You haven't met my older Sister - Ford, Honda, VW, Honda, Toyota. She
keep saying never again to whatever she is driving at the moment. Or
my other sister - Ford, Ford, Mazda, VW, Ford, Toyota. She changes
with the wind. Or my SO - Nissan, For, Toyota, Plymouth,Toyota. She
likes Toyotas (but doesn't really have a reason). Toyotas are in this
year....and they all agree NO VWs.

It is funny how people have different experiences. I don't rent a lot
of cars, so I am sure I am not typical. When I rent for business, I
always seem to get a Taurus. The last one was very good. No problems,
no complaints from me at all. It had decent seats, good power, etc.
Nothing special, but certainly not bad. The biggest POS rental I ever
got was a Camry in Hawaii (personal rental - seemed all they had were
Toyotas). What a dog. No power, no room, horrid (and I mean horrid)
seats. If you had offered it to me for free, I would have taken it,
but there is no way I would have bought it. Summer before last we
rented a car in Texas. We got a Pontiac Grand Prix. I don't usually
like GM cars, but even I had to admit it was a terrific car. It had
the supercharged 3.8L V-6. Really good seats (best I've had in a
rental ever). It got terrific fuel economy despite driving around at
over 80 mph (Texas has insane speed limits on two lane roads). It was
very quiet. It handled well. The A/C was great (and very needed in
Texas in July). There were three of us in the car, and no one griped
about room. My only complaint was the stupid red/orange instruments
and displays. Very irritating. The car had over 34k miles, so it had
seen plenty of use. I didn't care for Pontiac styling but if the car
had a decent looking body, (like the current G8) it would have been of
interest to me.

Ed

 

I had three VWs. Some people were amazed that I bought a second one,
since my 1979 Rabbit had a huge number of problems (though after 100K
miles the infant failures were worked out and it went another 100K
before I sold it). Subsequent VWs were purchased with the express
knowledge that they'd be less reliable than their Japanese competitors.
The VWs had much better handling; very fun cars to drive on windy
mountain roads. Roof racks for bicycle and skis worked much better
because VW worked with Thule to create a seamless system that didn't
contact the roof surface for support. The standard engines were
non-interference and very robust. Maintenance was cheap because VW parts
are made by a lot of after-market companies around the world. It was
easy to do oil changes (and tune-ups on the earlier ones). The paint was
far better than the crap on Hondas.

VW seems to go in cycles. Now they have the amazing TDI Jetta that gets
like 58mpg, and is still a real car (unlike a Prius).

 

That is not factual! Manufactures do NOT sell to rental fleets at a 'huge
discounts!' The fleet discount is available on vehicles from just about
every manufacturer, foreign and
domestic. Every domestic vehicle sold to fleets is sold by individual
dealerships. Imports love to sell to fleets it is just that they are not
very successful at doing so, except to rental fleets. The Korans do a
better job than the Japs however. Most courier cars are Korean or
domestics

The average fleet discount is around $600 to $800 per vehicle. Rental car
companies are eligible for the fleet discount. Contrary to what many seem
to believe manufactures can NOT sell directly to fleets, or any other buyer
for that matter, except their franchised dealership because of US franchise
laws. The ONLY exception is Toyota. Toyota, because it sells to
distributorships, who then sell to the dealerships, they CAN and do sell
directly to fleets.

Toyota was dumping its poor selling Camry Solaras to Hertz in 2007, at way
below dealer invoice, in an effort to keep the Camry as the number one
selling car at the time because the Accord was out selling the Camry.
During 2008 Toyota was dumping Solaras and Tundra as well. Tundras were
selling, for months, at the Manheim Auctions for as low as 25K because of
its dismal sales.

 

Can't prove that by me. Since I stopped buying foreign cars I have owned a
dozen or so Ford Motor Company vehicles. I have not ever had a single
problem with any ot them.

 

Can't prove that by me! The only vehicle I owned in the past ten years that
had any problems was a '97 Lexus.

 

What makes you believe those with a lower build quality rating when new will
IMPROVE with age? LOL

 

[ top post corrected; you really need to work on that]

There's a big difference in the quality problems at delivery and the
reliability problems over the life of the vehicle.

I don't know about you, but I've never seen major problems on any
vehicle before 16-17K miles. Most motor or transmission design issues
show up at 50K+ miles, as do most suspension issues, accessory issues,
electrical issues, etc. Before that, all you generally see are
premature failure of wear items. All of that is long past the JD
Powers survey time frame.

 

They used to have a Long-Term survey, but that didn't make *SOME*
carmakers look good (because Toyota and Honda kept coming out on top) so
they don't discuss those...

 

JDP "Initial Quality Survey" is a joke. "Not enough cup holders" is a
defect.

"In particular, issues with difficult-to-use audio and entertainment
controls and voice command recognition failure are among the top ten
problems most frequently reported by customers. Since hands-free
communication for drivers will become a mandate in more and more areas
throughout the U.S., this will need to be an area of continued focus
for automakers."

<http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?id=2008063>

The "Long Term Dependability Survey" is equally subjective.

"The study also finds that five of the top 10 problems reported
industry-wide in the 2008 Vehicle Dependability Study were also among
the top 10 most frequently reported problems in the 2005 Initial
Quality Study, suggesting that the problems are identified by owners
during the initial ownership period, but have not been rectified by
automakers during the three-year ownership period.

The problems include:

1. Excessive wind noise
2. Noisy brakes
3. Vehicle pulling to the left or right
4. Issues with the instrument panel/dashboard
5. Excessive window fogging"

 

Pfft, why should they? US corporations don't.

Well, they sure aren't paying any taxes now.

On the other hand, the Suburban burns a lot more Arab oil.

I don't know if the OP owns both of these vehicles but it is safe to
say that they are not often cross-shopped. So if one was considering
a Ford Fusion (50% Domestic) and a Honda Civic (70% Domestic), which
should they choose?

 

And he will top post it.

 

True, that. Almost any company can pass an 'initial quality' survey. Even
VW...

Works for me...

http://celladdons.1st-found.com/images/img44/NNTN5071.jpg

$7.99 I have the phone mounted to the dash. My Sony phone has a jack I can
plug into the stereo that makes it truly hands-free.

 

Hey, those are important issues to "real" car buyers. (LOL)

Are you suggesting that these are not key indicators of reliability?
Certainly you aren't inferring that three years is not long enough
time to determine reliability!

They should rename the company "J(ust) D(arn) Worthless".

 

I was happy with my 95 S-10 initially, but within the first year I was
having issues with it. One hose kept coming off one of the emissions
controls, I think the mechanic got smart enough that he finally put a
jubilee clip on it after 4 trips to fix it. Rust on certain parts before
the first year was up. Initial satisfaction just means the manufacturers
are good at covering over their mistakes. Long term satisfaction is the
goal. And GM doesn't get it.

Sir Charles the Curmudgeon

 

Ford brought Dr. Deming himself to Dearborn to teach quality in 1981! The
quality was improving quite steadily until the mid-1990's when Jac "The
Knife" Nasser was brought in from Europe to cut costs. That's when quality
started to go down again, because even though Nasser had brought in Six
Sigma techiques, much of the engineering staff was sacked and there was no
people or money to do the jobs right. When Nasser was thrown out in '99,
quality was again seriously emphasized, and now you can actually put Ford at
the top with Toyota and Honda, whereas in 1980, you could not.

Derek

 

And that's just the trouble with the Detroit 3. Quality depends on who's on
top. It's not an ongoing culture of quality. Toyota may be moving away
from it, but Detroit never had it. (Actually I thought his wife was on
top?)

Sir Charles the Curmdgeon

 

You mean he can only **** up?

 

My father had an S-10 work truck that had about 100,000 mi with many,
many short trips. And a Toyota SR-5 that didn't last as long. Plus a
1970 C-10 that lasted over 20 years with also over 100,000 mi on with
many, many short trips.

Chevy does build good trucks, as do Ford and Dodge.

They do achieve long-term satisfaction.

Jeff

 

That may be your opinion but where in the world do you ever get that idea?