Import owners are to blame for the recession

I assume the data is not "wrong" but it is likely to be misused or
misinterpreted, or interpreted to fit the writers biases. The author
had a point of view, he presented the data in a manner to support his
point of view. Without a lot more information, it is hard to refute
his conclusions. I do see a few things I don't like:

1) The data is for Canada
2) I have no idea of the statistics involved - seeing more of the raw
data would have helped.
3) How are they factoring out cars destroyed in accidents? If they
aren't, then do you think no one in Canada totaled a 2004 model year
import car during the first two years of it life? Or maybe people
don't wreck imports in Canada.
4) In one chart they lump Ford, GM, and Chrysler into one group and
all imports into another. This makes it impossible to know what
exactly they are telling me. Are Toyota's better than Fords? Can't
tell from this grouping. In another chart they list survival rates for
older vehicles, but again, without the raw numbers and some
statistical analysis, it is hard to know what it really means.
According to the data provided 98.7% of all Porsche sold 11 to 15
years ago have survived (whatever than means), versus "only" 78.2% of
all Toyota sold in the same time period. Do you think this means
Porsches are more reliable than Toyotas (I certainly don't). Do you
really think Lincolns are a lot more reliable than Fords or Mercurys?
I don't, but this data suggests they are.
5) No idea on relative usage of the vehicles. Do you assume all
vehicles are treated identically? Or is it possible that import owners
are better (or worse) at maintaining vehicles and/or that import
owners are easier (or harder) on vehicles than domestic vehicle
owners, or that import owners are more (or less likely) to hold on to
vehicles for personal reasons that have nothing to do with actual
(versus perceived) reliability? I think the chart that shows that
Porsches are the longest surviving vehicles should answer this
question for you.
6) How about the cost of keeping something for more than 10 years?
7) How about number of miles driven?

I've only kept a few vehicles for as long as 11 years. None were
imports. My Sister kept her last Honda for 11 years. It still moved
when she sold it, and that is about the best thing I can say for it. I
am more interested in the dependability of cars I want. I am certain I
do not want an 11 to 20 year old Toyota of any type. I lived through
one 80's vintage Toyota. For all I know it is still on the road
somewhere. All I can say is after 5 years and 50k miles, I was happy
to see it go.

Ed

 

As is (TMMC) Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada Inc. in Canada. The
new RAV 4 line just opened in Woodstock (where HINO division of Toyota
also builds trucks.

 

What year Toyota and name the problem. It was more likely a dealer
problem than a vehicle problem. I NEVER ran across a Toyota I couldn't
fix.

 

Anyone who has an sye in their head can tell they are the same
vehicle.


However, in one article (I can't remember which one) the Vibe did not
get the "best buy" because Pontiac chose to sell it for $1400 more
than the Matrix in the Canadian market, and the Matrix had more
content.

The difference between the Matrix and the Vibe is a LITTLE more than
the nameplate. Interior trim is a bit different too.

 

You're absolutely right! Parts manufacturers would be cranked to capacity
replacing defective parts, Detriot would be cranked to capacity building
cars to replace the ones falling apart, and service centers would be
booked to the limit.

No thanks. American cars are too hit or miss for me. For every one that
runs fine there are 5 just like it needing constant repair.

Did you ever stop to think, if Detroit had some consistency they wouldn't
be in the mess they are now?

I had three Caravans (well, one Caravan and two Grand Voyagers). I'm
looking for another one. I like them. But, like the last one, I hope the
trannies were serviced by Chrysler dealers who knew enough to put in the
correct fluid. Either that or, like the one before it, had a Chrysler
rebuilt tranny put in 10,000 miles before I bought it. As long as the 3.3
liter engine doesn't have a broken rocker tower like the last one. Still
drove it 10,000 miles even though the engine sounded like it was going to
blow up any minute...

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/33.html

Rocker arms / rocker arm pedestal breakage

One problem - relatively common but still rare overall - with the 3.3 and 3.8 is rocker arm pedestal breakage.

John "Auto Tech" wrote,

    "I honestly don't know of any way to prevent it from happening but I do know of a repair that can be done
'on the car' and it works without replacing the head. (To begin with it
needs to be understood that the head is "already ruined", the proper
repair procedure is to replace the entire head.)

    That being said, this make shift repair has worked on 6 or 7 heads that I have seen with my own eyes. You
need to remove any existing threads from the broken pedestal (so a longer
bolt will pass through) and drill out the head below to make new threads.
The drilled hole WILL break through the head casting so the helicoil
installation needs to be precise. I don't recommend this head repair for
your average do-it-yourself person and if you have any doubts then fix it
right and replace the head.

       1. Remove the rocker shaft and the broken tower.
       2. Drill out any threads in the tower.
       3. Drill out the head below the broken tower and install a
       Heli-Coil in the head. Now you can install a longer bolt through
       the rocker shaft and tower that will hold the entire assembly to
       the head.



My LHS was a damn good car. It already had the subcarriage rework by the
time I got it:

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/12/941226dC.html

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/relatedRecallsummary.cfm?INV_ID=EA98025&recallIdlist=99V215000&ModuleType=Vehicles


For my 1995 Toyota Tercel:

Common Problems
        
Recalls & TSBs
        
Owner Reviews
Brakes  No common problems reported.
Drive Train     No common problems reported.
Engine  No common problems reported.
Exhaust & Emissions     No common problems reported.
Electrical & Lights     No common problems reported.
Miscellaneous   No common problems reported.
Suspension & Steering   No common problems reported.
Heating & Air Conditioning      No common problems reported.
» Do you have something to add?
Recalls and Technical Service Bulletins for the 1995 Toyota Tercel
Body, Interior & Misc.  
Recalls:
None reported.
TSBs:
None reported.
Brakes  
Recalls:
None reported.
TSBs:
None reported.
Drive Train     
Recalls:
None reported.
TSBs:
None reported.
Electrical & Lights     
Recalls:

    * EXTERIOR LIGHTING

TSBs:
None reported.
Engine  
Recalls:
None reported.
TSBs:
None reported.
Exhaust & Emissions     
Recalls:
None reported.
TSBs:
None reported.
Heating & Air Conditioning      
Recalls:
None reported.
TSBs:
None reported.
Suspension & Steering   
Recalls:
None reported.
TSBs:
None reported.
Recalls for the 1995 Toyota Tercel
Electrical & Lights: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Campaign Number: 06E026000
Number of Vehicles Affected: 61,944
Model Years Affected: 1995, 1996, 1997
Date Owner Notified: 04/2006

Defect Summary: CERTAIN PRO-A MOTORS CORNER LAMPS, TURN SIGNALS, AND HEADLIGHTS SOLD AS
REPLACEMENT LAMPS FOR USE ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES LISTED ABOVE. SOME
COMBINATION LAMPS THAT ARE NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO
CONFORM TO FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, LAMPS,
REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.

Consequence Summary: WITHOUT THE AMBER REFLECTORS, THE VEHICLE WILL BE POORLY ILLUMINATED,
POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH WITHOUT WARNING.

Corrective Summary: PRO-A MOTORS WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND OFFER TO REPURCHASE THE LAMPS. THE RECALL
BEGAN ON APRIL 3, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT PRO-A MOTORS AT 323-838-2988.

Recall Notes: THIS RECALL ONLY PERTAINS TO PRO-A MOTORS AFTERMARKET LAMPS
AND HAS NO RELATION TO ANY ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT INSTALLED ON THE LISTED
PASSENGER VEHICLES.FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THE LAMP MODEL NUMBERS, CLICK
ON DOCUMENT SEARCH AND VIEW DOCUMENT TITLED "LAMP MODEL NUMBERS."CUSTOMERS
MAY CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION¿S VEHICLE
SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-327-4236 (TTY: 1-800-424-9153); OR GO TO
HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV.



Not that this only applies to aftermarket replacement lighting. There was
one other TSB that I recall: the ground screw on the antenna comes loose
and causes static on AM. Wow.

I looked at an HHR before buying my Scion tC. Underpowered. Tried to get
one with a 171HP engine and 5-speed transmission. That was in 2006. I'm
still waiting for the dealer to call me back.

WHY WOULD I BUY A CAR I DON'T WANT?!?! If they HAD what I wanted, I would
have bought it!!!!

 

Betcha a new Corolla or my daughter's new Honda has more North
American parts than either my PT Cruizer, My wife's Mystique, or my
daughter's old Neon??

I know a LOT of companies locally make parts for both Honda and Toyota
- and I KNOW all the body parts are stamped inhouse at Toyota.. The
big presses stamp out both sides of the corolla - each side is ONE
PEICE from firewall to tail-light.

 

because no-one else can buy an "american" Ford? A lot of the "EURO"
Ford stuff would make good "American" cars - but they are neither
built nor available here.

 

(snipped analysis)

You make some good points, but it is what it is.
The writer seemed fair to me.
I would like the raw data too, but I don't have it.
The biggest reason I see for the difference in longevity is something
the writer mentioned - initial price and resale value.
Both are market driven and influenced greatly by perceptions.
They don't always reflect reality, but sometimes they do.
SMS has written about how it is sometimes better to buy a new Toyota
because a year-old model can cost as much.
That doesn't seem like it would be true, but apparently it is.
There is no measuring how different makes are maintained, but
it is fairly obvious that more care will be taken when there is more
value. It's a chicken/egg proposition in proving which is first.
So I'll go with the available "data" here, at least until I see
something that contradicts it.
Personal experience not clouded by "perception" is a different matter.
That's why I make out like a bandit buying used GM cars.

--Vic

 

Well, in NC BIG American cars outsold imports over the last 15 years -
and BIG cars is one thing the Americans have done (relatively) well.

Try to find an early ford Escort on the road? I'm talking the first
generation escort from North America.
How about a Chevy Monza, Vega, or Chevette, or a Buick SkyHawk?
How about an "Ominous Omni" or "Horendous Horizon"

HUndreds of thousands sold - allmost all now scrapped.

TwoTone silver and grey was a COMMON pain job on the early Camry up
here in Canada. Several other 2 tone treatments as well.

Diito for Mercedes and BMW (or Cadillac))

 

Where you usually get that problem is a GM dealer decided to take on Toyota
as a brand. In their service department, they try to do things the SAME OLD
WAY. That's how my Dad's valves in his 77 got cracked.

Sir Charles the Curmudgeon

 

About all the cars at car shows are the 60's and before BIG cars. I go to
a car meet on Monday nights sometimes during the summer and I see ONE
Corvair. Sometimes if I'm lucky, I'll see 2. No first-gen Chevy II's,
usually. No Vegas, no Citations, no Shitvettes. Now how many Corvairs,
Chevy IIs, Citaions and Vegas and Shitvettes were made?

The only 'small cars' I usually see with any regularity at car shows are
Corvettes, Camaros, Firebirds and Mustangs.

Mike H keeps complaining he sees no Toyotas in car shows. Well, how many
Ford Falcons does he see? Pintos? Mavericks? I had a friend in the late
70's that drove a 4 door Maverick that already was rusted to hell and drove
like a piece of crap. The nickname for Chevette almost everywhere I find
someone willing to talk about them is 'Shitvette'. As far as I'm concerned,
the last good small car Ford built was the second Model A.

I had a friend that had a Pinto station wagon and it was starting to get
expensive, so he traded it for a K-car (both well used, and he'd wished he'd
kept the Pinto.). Where he's at nowadays, he either drives a Toyota 4x4
pickup or Land Cruiser or a motorcycle of some kind.

Sir Charles the Curmudgeon

 

The data does not pretend to rate reliability.
It rates one thing, and one thing only - the raw number and percentage
of vehicles registered new in a given year and the number still
registered X number of years later. It does not correct for anything,
including imports of used vehicles (or exports of used vehicles) over
that time period, nor those written off.

And it IS a lot less likely for a Honda or Toyota to be written off
than say a Focus or a Cobalt. The salvage value is so much higher it
takes a lot more damage to write them off.

However, the data is ACCURATE, and has not been interpreted or
massaged at all by Desrosiers except to sort the numbers in a spread
sheet.

His conclusions ARE correct.

ALL vehicles have become longer-lived over the years. This means
people are willing to keep spending what is required to keep them on
the road longer as the years go by. This IMPLIES more reliability, but
that implication cannot be stated as fact. The case of BMW and Porsche
are cases in point.

Cars worth in excess of $100,000 can be total crap as far as
reliability is concerned - they can be desireable for other reasons.
Some go FAAST. Some look GOOOOOD, and others just shout "LOOK AT ME,
I'M RICH!!!.

However, the day of a 6 year old rusted out hulk which is neither
driveable nor worth fixing is, almost entirely, in the past
(Thankfully)

As the numbers indicate, you will see more 1969 Chevelles and Darts on
the road than Corollas and Datsun 510s.
Quite possibly in 2015 you will see more 2000 Corollas than 2000 Donge
Neons or Ford Focus on the road.

 

A command economy, eh ? It may sound like a great idea, but it didn't
work out well in Russia or Eastern Europe.

Far better to let the consumer decide.

 

How many Toyotas & Datsuns were sold in the NA in 1969, compared with Chevys
& Dodges/domestic cars? Until the early 70's (at least in upstate NY) there
weren't a whole lot of foreign dealerships or garages that dealt with the
maintenance of foreign cars. By the mid-70's, that was no longer a
hindrance.

Cathy

 

That is the biggest problem. How many GM, Ford, or Chrysler vehicles are
exported to Japan every year, compared with how many Jap cars are exported
to here?

 

1) When you call someone "dummy," should look in the mirror first.

2) Ford also makes cars in Mexico for export to the US.

3) Ford also imports cars and car parts from other countries into the
US.

Most of the car companies do the same thing.

Jeff

 

Toyotas and Hondas are often made in the US.

However, many cars made in the US by the Michigan 3, are high quality.
I have a 11.5 y.o. Contour and 0.5 y.o. Focus. Both are good. No
problems with either, other than normal wear and tear.

Jeff

 

Toyota actually made some cars in CA for export to Japan. Chrysler
also exports some Jeeps to Japan and Europe, mostly because they don't
have many operations overseas.

Chrysler is barely multinational. They sell very few cars outside the
US.

 

You got ripped off. The timing chain doesn't have gears.

 

Why do you think BMWs and Porsches are not in fact reliable cars? My
P-car is certainly not a status symbol (crap paint, beat dash, so-so
seat covers) just a driver. I find that the cost of maintenance is more
than, say, a Dodge Dart, but it is more pleasant to drive (not knocking
the Dart, if you see a nice pre-67 2-door or ragtop for sale, let me
know) therefore it is worth it to me to keep it maintained. It'll be
old enough to legally buy a beer next year and I hope to keep it at
least until my yet-to-be-ordered new company car hits its mileage limit
and I have the option to buy it out (probably about 3 years.) By that
time I might as well pull it off the road and start restoring it, as by
the time I'm done with that it'll qualify for antique plates

nate