Import owners are to blame for the recession

The sad thing is, both of those are European designs and are arguably
better than anything Ford has designed domestically.

The same can be said for GM/Holden.

nate

 

I don't know how long domestics vs. foreigns last, but reliability
surveys show that Japanese vehicles usually hold up better, and I
can't believe it's because their owners take better care of them.

I actually tried buying American -- once, but the dealer, which was
ranked #7 in the US among Frod dealers, treated me like crap and said
I shouldn't have expected good quality from a budget vehicle, even
though it was Frod's most reliable one at the time, along with the
F-150. They also said that the lumpy bondo on the sides of the roof
wasn't a defect because all cars of that model had the same defect.
Yes, they did refer to the non-defect as a defect.

 

The manufacturing end of the Big 3 is a bit more muddled than that. Making
some cars in Mexico, outsourcing engines and transmissions from Germany,
France, and England for instance. Oddly, Ford in the past assembled the
Focus in Mexico. In late 07, they moved it to Wayne, Michigan. My point
being is that there are many shades of gray that people try to make black
and white to fit their opinion boxes.

Learned yesterday that the total CO footprint to get the raw materials for
the batteries and make batteries for the Toyota Prius far outweighs current
gasoline fed counterparts in the lifetime of the vehicle. The nickel comes
from Canada, and the batteries are made in China. Will GM's source of
batteries have the same CO impact for the VOLT?


Past few years, Nissan and Toyota have been making trucks and SUVs to
compete with the Big 3's. These recent Nissan/Toyota trucks in particular
are relatively heavy in weight and mass in relation to their carrying volume
capacity (purpose of a truck).


Tossing some cans of food, or a used child's coat, in a giving box is some
people's perception of supporting America. I'll leave it at that....

 

You mean a 1981 Escort? I'll find you one of those if you can find me
a Starlet from the same year.

Vega: 71-77 - I found 12 on Autotrader
Monza: 75-80 - I found 5 on Autotrader
Chevette: 76-87 - I found only 1 on Autotrader
Corolla 71-87 - I found 2 on Autotrader (an 81 and an 85)
Crown 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Cressida 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Tercel 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Celica 71-87 - I found 2 on Autotrader (an 84 for parts and an 87
convertible)
Corona 71-87 - I found one on Autotrader

How many Corollas from the 70's do you see? How about Coronas, Crowns
or Cressidas? When was the last time you saw a first generation Celica
or Tercel? The first Toyota any of my friends owned was a 1st
generation Celica. It was a POS. It didn't last 11 years. Even in NC
it rusted away in less than 8 years. I can't imagine that cars as
crappy as that could last 30 years in Canada. In the late 70's I rear
ended a Corolla with my Jensen-Healey. The rear of the Corolla folded
up like a cheap suitcase. I drove the Jensen-Healey home with minor
hood damage.

In general, my biggest problems with Toyotas is not reliability, it is
the poor ergonomics of the cars, the crummy paint jobs, and high
maitenance costs. I am a large person and everytime I get into a
Toyota, I hit something with my arms, or knees, or head. If I check
the specs at Consumer Reports, the numbers invariably look good, yet
when I actually sit in one of the cars, there is always something in
the way. My SO's RAV4 is a perfect example. Something that large
should have plenty of front leg room, and the specs say it does, but
the truth is the front seat is tight as heck. My older son refuses to
ride in the front of my Sister's RAV4 it is so uncomfortable (he has
long legs). The console placement gives me fits. It restricts the foot
space to the right of the acceleration pedal, and makes for an
uncomfortable long trip. Plus the seat are pure crap. No support,
flat, etc. And don't get me started on the control layout. They should
use the cruise control thingy in human factors classes as the must
f&*ked up control device every inflicted on mankind. Whoever came up
with that design should be sent to the salt mines.

This one was white on top and silver on the bottom. The paint job
looked like new.

 

It goes beyond that as well. The domestic content laws are so convoluted
that the number that's indicated bears little relation to the actual
domestic content. Also, the domestic content percentage doesn't include
labor.

The best thing is to ensure that the specific vehicle has a first digit
of the VIN code of 1 or 4, indicating that it was manufactured in the U.S..

There's another issue at work here against Ford, GM, and Chrysler, that
goes beyond reliability (which they claim to have solved). People buy
Toyotas and Hondas not just for mechanical reliability, but for human
factors (better ergonomics), better bodies and paint (resulting in less
rust), as well as for the reliability. It used to be that routine
maintenance cost more on non-big 3 vehicles, because unlike the big 3,
there weren't a lot of after-market replacement parts available from
Mexico and China. This is still true for the less popular "import"
brands (Subaru, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Kia, etc.) but it's no
longer an issue for Toyota, Honda, VW, and Nissan models. Still, as with
the big 3, be cautious about after-market parts since the quality is
often much worse than OEM parts.

Now when I rent a "big 3" vehicle, I'm still amazed at how much poorer
the ergonomics and design actually are. I guess I keep thinking that
they simply _must_ have improved after all these years. We rented a
Chrysler mini-van last summer (because the size car we reserved wasn't
available), OMG. Cruising down the mountain from Idaho into Wyoming I
wanted to put it into 2nd gear so I didn't have to ride the brakes, but
guess what? There's no more PRNDL or PRND21. It's now PRND. Talk about
decontenting!

 

You as an American taxpayer should consider the fact Japanese corporations
do not pay US federal Corporate income taxes on the profits earned in the
US. Chrysler, on the other hand, when it was a German Corporation DID pay
US federal Corporate income taxes on the profits made on the Chryslers sold
in the US. Tax laws between the US and Europe and the US and Japan are
not the same.

As to the Chevy Suburban, Honda, comparison the Suburban uses 85% American
parts and the Honda uses far less and I doubt the poster owned both


..com> wrote in message news...

 

What is your point? The same is true of you local Chevy dealership

 

You just proved his point.

 

.. We rented a

 

I guess we can assume you did not see the "L" or the little buton that
lowers the ratio?

 

Where is it? I looked around, certain that they must have some way to
lower the ratio, but I couldn't find it. If it is there, then it's just
one more example of the lack of human factors engineering and ergonomics
that Detroit has become famous for. I shouldn't have to look for how to
shift into low, or read a manual to figure it out, it should be an
obvious choice on the gear selector. G-d invented PRNDL, who is Chrysler
to take it away?

 

I would like to purchase an American car when I shop again.

However, I feel like, when buying American, 'You pays your money, you takes
your chances'.

If all Americans bought American cars, the US economy would be rockin
and rollin right now. Don't give me that stuff about Toyota and Honda
manufacturing over here either. GM employs 130,000 in the United
States. Toyota employs 30,000, Honda less than that. Most of the
import jobs are just blue collar jobs also, where GM has over 50,000
engineers. The Japanese automakers have brainwashed us into thinking
that buying their car is an investment in this country. I say we buy
from the Big Three and take our economy back.

 

This is not true. Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true
either.

Ed

 

Denial is not a river is Egypt

 

I think just the opposite is true. Honda are OK when it comes to
ergonomics, but Toyota hasn't got a clue. I have yet to sit in a
comfortable Toyota (and I have several in the family to choose from).
The RAV4 has the worst control layout I have ever seen, and that
includes several British cars with stone age controls. The RAV4 seats
are horrid,and the driver position is terrible (at least for a large
person). My SO has to but a pillow behind her back to keep from
getting back strain and she is an average size female. As for paint -
Toyota has HORRIBLE paint. Go find a five year old Toyota, chances are
the paint is dull and faded. There are three older Toyotas in my
parking lot and they all look like crap. My sister's 11 year old Civic
literally had paint falling off the car when she sold it. My 14 year
old F150 looked much better, despite never having been waxed, and
rarely washed.

Don't lump all domestic in with Chrysler. My Ford Fusion still has a
low, and so does my Nissan Frontier. I'll show you a horrid shifter -
the stupid back and forth gated thing on a RAV4. Overly complicated
and way to easy to actually put in 4 instead of OD. I have no idea why
they made it so weird. It is just a switch. Toyota is notorious for
wacky controls. I still remember the awful Cressida we owned. Another
Toyota POS with bad controls, poor reliability, and HORRIBLE paint.

Ed

 

Since I bought my last of many import brands in 1997, I have not owned a
single domestic that had ANY problems.

 

I don't buy crappy cars made by ACCOUNTANTS. I buy cars made by
ENGINEERS.

I have NEVER OWNED an American car and I never will buy one. I
predicted Detroit would go bankrupt DECADES AGO. People WON'T BUY
CRAP.

Detroit relied for too long on you flag-wavers who only "buy
American".

Intelligent people buy quality. They don't buy irrelevant pieces of
shit that get bad gas mileage. Even today, Detroit is bragging about
25 miles per gallon. Imagine-- "bragging" about a measley TWENTY-FIVE
MPG!

You have got be kidding me! LOL

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/09/a-message-to-boing-b.html

 

My point exactly. You make up crap and when it is pointed out you run
and hide. Stand up, prove it for a change. I know you won't, becasue
it isn't true. You probably know that also. Next reply from you will
be something like - "I don't do research for others," or "based on my
ten million years of experience in all industries doing everythign I
am absolutely right". What you should say is - "I made this crap up
and I am too stubborn to admit it."

Ed

 

Thus spake :

Right. Like I want a Burb or an F150. Detroit pissed away their
survival years ago when they decided that they could sell low mileage,
high margin trucks. Now they're paying the price for looking at today
and ignoring tomorrow.

Our economy tanked because too many people got greedy and bought
houses they couldn't afford. Now they can't afford a $30,000 burb.
But they can afford a $12,000 Corolla. BTW, a friend who until
recently was a sales manager at a Chevy dealer here said (this was in
July) that he had a 5 month supply of Suburbans and Tahoes, but was
selling Cobalts off the truck. But Detroit isn't geared up to sell
the small cars.

I don't know if you've noticed, but ALL the car makers are tanking.
--
- dillon I am not invalid

When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.

 

You should buy some lottery tickets then - because you're the luckiest
big-3 buyer in the country.

PS. It's also impossible to believe you ever owned an imported car, no
matter how many times you make up those stories.